Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Adapting to HR's Changing Landscape
Navigating the Evolving HR Landscape: A Transatlantic Perspective
Join Leila McKenzie-Delis, founder and CEO of Dial Global, alongside industry leaders from Kearney, Pladis, MoCo Group, and consultancy firms in this enlightening webinar. Delve into the complexities of the evolving HR landscape, focusing on topics such as talent strategies, inclusion, equity, and resilience in a changing world. Hear insights on the profound impact of geopolitical tensions, technological innovations, and strategies to foster inclusive, diverse cultures.
Good afternoon, good morning everyone. Wherever you may be in the world, welcome to a very special webinar. My name is Leila McKenzie-Dellis and I am the founder and CEO of Dial Global, and we're hosting today's webinar in partnership with August Leadership. We're going to be talking about the profound impact of this evolving HR landscape. We're calling the webinar Navigating the Evolving HR Landscape a Transatlantic Perspective. I'm joined, as you can see, by some phenomenal guests, who I will introduce in just a moment, and the idea of today's session is that we want you to be excited and empowered, yet, at the same time, explore and unpack how some of this uncertainty is reshaping the future of work. As you've probably all seen, geopolitical tensions have been rather high. We've seen shifting economies, technological innovations accelerating everything from HR to engagement, and leaders in the main are under a pretty big amount of pressure to be able to adapt, and that's everything from balancing risk mitigation with inclusive people first, strategies that maintain long-term corporate integrity right the way through to dealing with crisis comms, and looking at strategies to be able to amplify current engagement and maximize potential of people within organizations and also maximize revenues as well. Companies like the ones that we have here and the leaders we have here, remaining resilient in their long-term commitment, which we'll be finding out much more about as we go through today's session.
Speaker 1:Let me take a moment to introduce some of our fantastic guests. We have Stephen Parker, who is partner and CHRO at Carney. He has over 25 years worth of experience within the consulting world. He is a Brit living over the pond in the States. He successfully led and grown human capital consulting businesses for many years and we're delighted to have him here.
Speaker 1:We also have Geraldine Fraser. Geraldine is a titan of industry, has superb global experience, currently Chief Human Resources Officer for Pladis Global. You may know them better as being owners of McVitie's and Ulka and many of the other snacking brands. She was formerly the CPO for Friesland Campina, a global FMCG organisation. We also have Catherine Lynch, fci PD. Catherine has a plural role. She is non-exec and non-co and rem co-chair, as well as also being chief people officer for Mobico Group PLC, based in the UK, a FTSE 250 organisation. And, last but never least, marie SotoSaunders, a chief people officer with some brilliant global expertise, formerly MD for People and Talent for CVC Capital Partners, large scale private equity organisation, and American living here in the UK. So a great group we have here Without further ado, I'm going to intro our very first guest, Stephen.
Speaker 1:I'm going to come to you to open up the session no pressure here, of course to tell us a little bit about what you are seeing. You know Carney's at the forefront and has been very positively proactive in its diversity, inclusion, culture, people, engagements, but real legitimacy in this space. Talk to us a little bit about some of the key trends that you believe organisations should be paying immediate attention to if they are really serious about building inclusive, resilient cultures.
Speaker 3:Thanks, leila, really happy to be here. When you and I chatted about this a few weeks ago, it was a good pause actually. As we were chatting, I listed once again which is helpful all the topics going on and, as I said to you, it sort of amazed me because I kept thinking back to February, when the change in government happened in America, and then just thought, ok, we will be spending the rest of our quarter year defending strategies inside the AI, because it just seemed an onslaught. And we still are. And yet since then, you know, we're in 40-odd countries.
Speaker 3:So you know we've had Ukraine. We have an office in Kiev and it's small. You know we've been supporting them and then the last months they think, okay, it's over, the world isn't going to support them. Many of the world has come forward. We've got immigration and travel. You know we have people all our colleagues have family members who have genuine concerns about friends, family. They might be under pressure, or even the practical Like. We have people that were due to come here as part of mobility transfers and now we can't get visas. We have tariffs and the uncertainty of what they mean and it's producing so much economic uncertainty that everyone's now pausing. You get this sort of decision, paralysis.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, constant was AI, which was very pertinent to, I think, my HR team. Biggest question they all had is everything from how are we going to get better at this? To are we going to be replaced by it? How are we going to get better at this to? Are we going to be replaced by it? How are we going to support our colleagues? That was a completely different list from the list we might have started with in January. So I started thinking about this when you said, like, what's important if you're going to build a resilient culture and there's a couple of things that we've, I think, done well to focus on just in the last three months to try and build on what we have been doing One is not to ignore that your own HR team needs to be resilient, because they're being hammered left, right and center on some of these topics. They're expected to be experts, expected to be resilient. It's a bit like the middle of COVID, you know, put your own oxygen mask on first.
Speaker 3:So we've been working hard to reach out to our diverse team and colleagues to make sure that they feel supported. We've been working hard to not get caught up in grand policy statements because you know they're kind of helpful, they give people reassurance but usually only for about 20 minutes and then they doubt because they see stuff happening around them to say, well, what did they mean? And it's very hard to write a global policy when you policy, when DEI is under attack to a certain extent in America and yet we have countries where it's part of their law, where we have to measure, in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and South Africa to take part in business there. So we have to be very careful. So we sort of said, okay, what can we do that's practical, that actually helps individuals that feel their livelihoods threatened, that feel frightened to go to different client settings to travel, avoid about their futures. So we're trying to sort of double down what real support, what real action can we do? And then how to make the communication from leaders a little bit more one-to-one and a little bit more constant, so that it's more of a dialogue, the best you can, and not just loading everything as if our CEO or managing partner is going to just make a series of grand pronouncements that feel good but are hard to figure out how they apply in every country, because we might say something to say look, we are going to defend our need for diversity all over the world because we need greater diversity in our talent pool totally, and we know that in order to do that you have to have an inclusive culture, Otherwise they all leave. You work so hard to get people to join and then they figure out oh that was it, that's where all your efforts ended.
Speaker 3:But I'll be honest with you, we've got to be careful in how we say that in certain countries because we follow the law, but in other countries that just dismays them. So one of the interesting trends in the last month I've noticed is our American colleagues are sort of fully at the front line and we're working really hard to do practical impact to improve diversity and improve inclusion. But the rest of the world can't see it and they're sort of worried and dismayed because they know that in the past this country where I live now and a citizen of, has been at the forefront of doing the best things. And now we mightn't be. And I think we've been encouraging some of our other colleagues around the world to say well, let's start to get good practices, talk what you're doing, you know, don't just get dismayed because you're not sure.
Speaker 3:But the biggest sort of wave of questions has come from outside the US, because they're sort of nervous and worried, not sure, and then the final thing we've been doing is, of course, trying to rely on our values. It's not perfect, but at least if you have values that you believe have some credibility, then they're a touchstone to say look, trust us, which we've been able to do, and people will disagree, but at least we're trying to have a discussion about it and not force it, you know, underground. So yeah, the trends are hard to read. You know it's sort of each week there'll be something else emerging. But the big one for me is how to sort of equip and take care of my own HR leaders, who can be then role models, and then how do they take care practically of the people around them with something that's real and helpful as opposed to just a policy. So pause.
Speaker 1:Stephen, thanks so much for that, and I think um really pertinent from what you've said is, yes, the trends are hard to read, but ultimately this is very much about trust, it's about long-term credibility, it's about sustainability. Um, and HR frankly does not get again sounding a little biased here, but HR does not get the credit in which it is due because, actually, it props up a lot of the time. The organisation is a strategic partner to the CEO and wider organisation. It is one that really does need oxygen to make sure it's being looked after, because you find then that a whole number of things end up going down and employer brand and integrity is absolutely central to that. Which leads me nicely on to Geraldine.
Speaker 1:Geraldine, if I may bring you in here off the back of the picture that Stephen has painted, being over in America from the Wirral, more specifically, actually over in the States, geraldine has just come in from China and has a very international background and working for Pladis, which is a global leader in snacking, it's really doubling down on its efforts, which I think is key given that we want consumer confidence as well. Geraldine, talk to us a little bit about how Pladis are doubling down on their commitment to DEI and perhaps some of the advice that you might offer organisations that want to maintain that strong sense of belonging from their people, especially at a time when we're seeing some organisations sidestepping from some of their DEI efforts.
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure, and thanks Leila, and thank you Stephen, because I think, as Stephen said, it's a sensitive topic at the moment and it's tricky territory at the moment and it's tricky territory but I think you know we have a governance board. So I think that is one piece of advice, I guess. So I think one of the things we wanted to be sure of within Pladis is that we didn't get caught up in all our own opinions and kind of go down that group think route. So we have an independent board, advisory board on inclusion, diversity and equity, who keep us kind of honest and also create, bring best practice, but also keep a certain consciousness around. You know what we're doing on IDE and it was actually with that board that we decided we had the confidence and the ambition to stay the course on IDE. So I think, where you can bring in that external counsel and external perspective, I would strongly recommend, because otherwise you have to give yourself courage. Sometimes you need other people to give you courage and the IDE board played that well for us.
Speaker 4:But I think for us, if I think about IDE and I think Stephen kind of alluded to it as well if you break down all the component parts of IDE and if I look at the feedback that we get from our employees and from leaders, et cetera, when we do diagnostic surveys, I think it's the things where you have targets and where you have which can be interpreted as quotas are the areas that don't. It's a topic that doesn't always land well because it starts to feel like unfair, although the intent was always about improving fairness and improving accessibility and equity. So actually, for us, at the heart of that discussion is around inclusion, and it's hard to debate why dignity at work, respect at work, are not good cultural norms in any organisation and in a world which may feel even more divided at some point at the moment. Having that sense of belonging through your work or through your organisation and a sense of community, because in the end, an organisation is a microcosm of society, isn't it? It is a community, so it can only be a good thing.
Speaker 4:So it may feel subtle, but I think switching the narrative to being around inclusion first and then what does that mean for us, was a real change that we made. So, for example, if I, we do have targets around women in leadership, but the origin of that was that were we being inclusive enough for our female population. That was the origin of the thinking not, oh, we must have targets. And that led us to say, actually, some targets will help us to bring more inclusion for our female population. So I think that element around inclusion, being at the heart and thinking what does that mean for you as an organization, has really helped us and helped us to be able to really think about, you know, say, whatever the communities that we have, whether it's LGBTQ community or whether it's our female neurodivergent communities, etc. And it's helped us to be able to have a broader, more engaging conversation with individuals where they all feel included in that dialogue, rather than calling out specific groups, and that has been really useful for us.
Speaker 4:So we have put in disproportionate effort behind a life transitions policy, for example, for all employees as they experience parenthood, and that gives extra leave for the main caregiver, support, caregiving, return to work, benefits, et cetera. And that has really built our story around inclusion and really gets to the core of the challenge, which is around how can we embrace everyone as we go on this journey of IDE. But, as Stephen also said, it can be tricky because at some point what can you say and what can't you say, and so in the States it can be delicate at the moment, but at the same time in Europe we have to prepare for pay transparency, which is at the raw end of the equity debate. So you're doing both within your organisation, but if you're doing it with integrity and you're doing it with the right level of authenticity and with the right intent, I believe you can find a way.
Speaker 1:Geraldine, I love that you have focused in a lot on the, the trust piece, the authenticity piece I'm already seeing a slight trend emerging here from yourself and Steve. But in particular, transition policies I just think are absolutely wonderful, and the nod to intersexuality, because at the end, most of us, all of us, go through various different transitions within life. You know, certainly myself at the moment being not too far off, you know, giving birth to two second little little boys. Definitely feeling you know that that it's going to be another chapter and knowing that you have employers and brands who are really sticking to their guns when it comes to looking after people and recognizing the, the care piece, and the return to work benefits to retain talent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a huge amount, yeah and I think, leila, it has landed so well, um, that now we're looking at the next phase of life transitions, where we've asked employees what we, what they think, what, what should that be? And I've said care care for either family members or care for parents or people in caregiving responsibility, and how do they balance that with work. So that's what we'll pursue next to see what does that mean in terms of creating an organisation where people feel they can be their best but they also have a level of support. Um, so that's our ambition and it's it's working.
Speaker 1:It's working well so far excellent um, and, if you haven't already seen, there were some brilliant articles. I saw one, I think it was in the grocery, and then we have one in the retail times as well, where you were quoted around the importance of brands and the importance how the brands have been part of people's lives as well, and it is. It's really that evolution of life journey, the brands that we remember and the you know, these life transitions which all of us have been through, and when it touches the heart and soul, then it really does make a difference, much as we also, as business leaders, love data and stats and all of those kind of other things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, perfect, I know, that's right, that's right Sorry, thank you.
Speaker 1:And a perfect pivot. Now from yourself, Geraldine, to another brilliant leader of talent, Murari. Murari, I'm going to come across to yourself, if I may. Murari has a brilliant background. I know I keep pointing this out, but we've got such a great international panel here, it just fills me. Rari is an American living in the UK, formerly was MD and Chief Talent for CBC, but is doing a lot within the HR and people space. Rari, talk to us a little bit about the background, I guess, and what you're seeing in, to an extent, the investment landscape, as I think it is important here to recognise that diverse inclusion, belonging equity culture. It comes in many forms and that is also how we invest in everything from minority, minority, female led organizations right the way through to talent. Can you talk to us about your approach, what you're seeing when it comes to talent strategies and also any of the trends in investment?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. First and foremost, it's funny. I do have. I am American, living in London, but my kids have British accents because they're British. So we live in a funny household of many accents. And the other thing I was going to say is congrats, leila. I know you're going to be an amazing mom of two. If I can do it, you most certainly can, so I'm excited for you.
Speaker 2:I think you know, when it comes to the space, the investment space, private equity and venture capital and right now I'm working actually with some early stage companies, so this comes up a lot. So in the VC and the PE space, I think it's important to note that there's a dual responsibility. There's the responsibility that you have internally and there's the responsibility that you have for your portfolio. And I'll lend on Stephen and Geraldine's brilliant points. One of you know taking care of your house right, making sure your HR people I think in the private equity space that lands well. You have to. And in the VC space, you have to know where you stand on EDI, where you stand on how you want to represent yourself and take care of your people and the things that come up for your people. And then, when it comes to the portfolio bit and I think Geraldine touched on this a bit with when it comes to brands right and their own identity is giving them the space to build that identity whilst at the same time, being clear about where you are on how you approach this strategy.
Speaker 2:And I will say, one of the things that is sadly lost in translation and I'm not going to lie, I kind of sometimes wish I had my children's accent, because it is not. It is probably one of the most embarrassing times to have my own accent, which makes me sad. I love being American, but it is, you know, it is. It is a time, we're in a time. But, with that being said, I think when I look at EDI, when I look at whatever DEI, however you want, whatever acronym you want to use, what I feel that is ultimately lost in translation is that it is a talent strategy. That is what it is. You know it's a talent strategy. That is what it is. It's a talent acquisition, talent development, and Geraldine touched on this with some of her programs, but it is about inclusion. It is about creating safe, productive, efficient and welcoming work environments, and we have that as a task.
Speaker 2:To break down a little bit more in terms of the investment side. So, if you look at it, from what is the VC, private equity responsibility? Internally versus externally, and externally we'll call that the portfolio group, but internally, I think, continuous collaboration and investments with programs such as Level 20 and SEO, because historically both private equities and VCs are not known to be spaces that were created for people that are in the underrepresented talent categories. So those programs Level 20, seo allow for there to be not only investment at the junior state of the person's career, but investment into entry into the private equity and the VC space. The second piece and this is a little bit of a hybrid between both, in some cases it depends on the size of the organization, but a role that I believe has a lot of impact around EDI and value creation is the talent partner roles. So the roles that focus on both the portfolio functions as well as the internal, and they have a way of influencing not only innovation into their functions in terms of how they go about hiring, market mapping and looking for talent, but they also have a way of creating programs that bring portfolio companies together as think tanks and thought leadership groups so that they can hold a position, if they want to, but also debate some of the things that they're experiencing in the port coast and they know that they're supported by the company that owns them. So one of the programs I worked on in the past was effectively like a lunch and learn where all of the port coasts come together we talk about in this particular one. We're talking about the maturity model in DEI and what were some of the practices and ideas that work for certain kinds of companies. And I think when people see that some of these challenges are agnostic, right, they find ways and they borrow from each other on how to work on these particular issues.
Speaker 2:And I think again, going back to and I hate to repeat this, but I just think it's important. So, going back to the fact that this is a talent strategy from the seat of the VC, in the private equity bit, I think the piece that is probably most important is the recognition that not only is it a talent strategy, but it's a talent strategy that has to be embedded into your investment thesis. It has to be embedded into your value creation plan. So when you think about who your clients are and in this case it would be the LPs and the investors right is holding some space, from some accountability from that group of people, embedding these talent strategies and these processes in that accountability for that group of people.
Speaker 2:And lastly and I think this part is also has already been touched on, but there is, in terms of the VC in the PE space, on the internal employee bit, the other bit that I see that really really works well is when people have structured strong EDI committees and have ERGs that are sponsored and supported by senior members of the organization, and that not only lends and opens voices for people who are underrepresented within those organizations, but it gives you again a well-rounded view of what is important on your investment side of the business, what's important on one side of the globe versus another.
Speaker 2:And again it ties it back into that value creation piece and that innovation, because there's massive potential. Well, and it is the case, but in a lot of VC and private equity spaces there's a lot of potential to have a lot of innovation, a lot of creativity. There is diversity in how people invest, in how they carry on with their business, the kind of companies that they attract, and so if that is tied together, that's that's sort of where you have like the best world possible it's super interesting when you talk about diversity of investment and it's like a whole.
Speaker 1:I mean maybe we should do another webinar on this is how wealth is created and the power of different, diverse communities and the investments they make, because that in and to itself is absolutely fascinating. But, to your point, lots of the challenges that we're seeing and lots of the transferable methodologies that we're trying to learn from one another right now and organizations are now and organisations are the best innovations often come from sector agnostic challenges, because I think organisations in certain sectors can at times get a little bit stuck in their ways, whilst we obviously can identify certain trends. But I really like the way that you talk about talent very specifically being key. I mean, from a talent mapping perspective, we are seeing a lot of, say, chief diversity roles being mapped in with chief diversity and talent and talent, as everyone has identified, is absolutely core and centre of many of the organisational growth strategies. So thank you for many of those pertinent points.
Speaker 1:And again, perfect segue to come across to Catherine, because whilst we're talking and you've talked a lot Ari investment, the import of talent from within organisations and also attracting talent, catherine, you have portfolio career now as well as obviously being chief K-listed PLC. It would be great now to move us into the world of the non-executive and the board because, of course, a lot of decisions influenced by the boards that we have serving our organisations. You and I have spoken candidly before about you know, often you being the only woman on a board and being in the minority. It would be great for you to unpack a little around your thoughts around diversity and innovation within boards, and you know perhaps some of the strategies that you might implement to make more space for women and not only to be more representative on boards, but also for there to be greater equity through this as a talent strategy yeah, thank you, leila.
Speaker 5:Good afternoon, good morning everybody, and hopefully going last, I get to draw some of the threads together from my esteemed guest panellists. So I sit on the board as a Remco and Nonco chair of an aim listed recruitment and training company here in the UK, and I've done that for now four and a half years. And what's interesting is, mireille, from your experience as an investor, a talent officer, my first interaction with institutional investors as the Rem chair was to face into a panel of eight men from Fidelity in 2021, who, interestingly, because I was the only woman on the board, were very upset by the lack of representation. I mean, there were only four board members at the time, so I was 25 percent of that, but they were very keen to have an additional board member female board member and yet they voted against me at my first AGM because I had a three year LTIP holding period, not a five year, and it went across their red line from an investment perspective. So oh, the irony that they were in one hand, telling us we didn't have enough representation and then they voted against the one woman that they had because of a REM policy conflict. So I did find that a bit of an interesting one, and that's a bit of an interesting one. And, look, I would never be in a situation where I would have a talent strategy that was all, had a really good DE and I pedigree, and so I think as CPOs potentially chief HR officers we can be quite influential and as board members in making sure you select the right partner. For a start, the second thing was insist on a 50-50 shortlist and therefore you're giving the opportunity to bring, but ultimately, of course, select, the best. Now I did actually select a lady called Amanda Aldridge who joined me at Staffline two years ago and I worked with her as a very close partner and she's terrific.
Speaker 5:But to your point, Leila, about maybe something a little bit more innovative, because there's nothing really unusual in what we did there at Starfline.
Speaker 5:When I was at Accenture PLC as a chief people officer, the chair there, very forward thinking, created a new role on the board called a board trainee and hired somebody from a diverse community and gave not just the opportunity for social and economic diversity, ethnic diversity, but also age diversity, to bring a different perspective to the board, and I thought that was fantastically smart because we got a voice of a different generation, a voice of a different background and they got an education in how to potentially progress to being a board member. Two years on, that board member was converted to a fully-fledged paid NED and they still serve on the board there today. So I've taken the best practice from what we did there and we'll look to replicate that here at Mobico to create real value and actually give something back to a community, particularly giving women opportunities to join boards who wouldn't necessarily otherwise and actually can speak quite passionately, because I've seen it work in practice. So a couple of points there that I hope are useful, leila.
Speaker 1:Very useful indeed and I think it's one of the questions that I'm often asked by C-suite and those who are looking to further their careers.
Speaker 1:Because ultimately, you know, what I know all of us are passionate about is how do we allow diverse talent to thrive, or talent from whatever background to be able to thrive without blockers. And a big part of it, to your point, is, you know, how do you, yes, send the lift back down and give that opportunity, but also how do we continue to identify talent and help it up those lofty, you know, hierarchies of you know, either a getting into the C-suite or, if you are at C-suite, looking at potentially the portfolio career, because it does often take the first chance almost to be given before then others come from that, and it was a lot of questions actually that were asked pre this session was advice on joining boards and C-suite becoming more endowed into that kind of that portfolio type career. So I wonder whether I could just um flip again back to you any thoughts on that before we kind of open up the floor um to some questions um and get everyone talking kate.
Speaker 5:Um, kate in the chat has actually asked me a question about did the board trainee have full voting rights? Um, yes, they absolutely did they. They, they didn't take a fee, they were expenses only because it was very much in that first 12 months, a development opportunity. They were mentored and sponsored by the chair who absolutely led and, and, interestingly, as a an older and um white experienced gentleman, um, and and I think again that was one of the things I wanted to draw out, you know it's getting as an older and white, experienced gentleman and I think again that was one of the things I wanted to draw out you know it's getting the men to sponsor some of these. It's not an unknown, it's not so much us women we try and do an awful lot for others in our own community but it's getting the men to actually sponsor and mentor and promote those opportunities. But that's now a rolling programme. So the chair will continue to every 12 months, rotate and give an opportunity, obviously not a permanent role, because that would need to complete a full term of three years potentially or even go on to do the six and nine, complete a full term of three years potentially or even go on to do the six and nine. But it's certainly a really good practice and I know one that other organizations are adopting and it's becoming more common.
Speaker 5:But in terms of your question, leila, you know getting opportunities and getting people. I personally think you know. Look at where you can add value. So, if you're a retailer through and through approach boards in your space where you can add value. So if you're a retailer through and through approach boards in your space where you can add subject matter expertise In my case, I was approached for something in recruitment and training, so it was a subject I knew plenty about. So whilst I was a rookie NED four and a half years ago, they knew that I could come to the table and confidently understand the industry, understand what the business was doing and go from that perspective of being a leader in that space and bringing that value to the board. So my advice is be proactive, but also think carefully when you're targeting opportunities as to what it is those organizations need and where you could add value.
Speaker 1:I'll hand back Leila Brilliant. Thank you, catherine. I'm seeing and please do, don't be shy everyone, it's a friendly group here. Please do tap in the chat or I see that there's messages coming through privately as well, so please do go ahead. We have got 10, 15 minutes where we'll be kind of now fielding some questions. But, catherine, we've seen a couple of responses here and some people who have clearly had some benefit from listening to you all. Someone here on the sports board I think this is Kate also saying that she's going to now recommend that we go for a trainee board role, which I think is fantastic.
Speaker 1:How do we give opportunity to talent? But, equally, how do we ensure that that is a? You know, it's a growth driver for the organisation. You know, one reflection that I have is looking at these different groups of talent, whether they be boards, whether they be employee resource groups or staff networks, as they're often called Powerful communities, because within these communities there's opportunities to learn and grow more and also to give these examples as personal development progression points, taking employee resource groups just as one community as an example, but it's often a voluntary community. It's incredible how many people are in these communities. One of our clients we work with Verizon. They have 25,000 people in their employee resource groups and you think, wow, that's bigger than many organisations and that is the power of volunteering. But you think, in these communities, where might one get the opportunity to lead or be at the helm of, to have that feedback loop into what are very senior individuals within the organisation?
Speaker 1:Otherwise, catherine, you touched on allyship and, stephen, I'm going to come across to you, since you opened us up and as the male in the minority on our panel, I would like to put you on the spot, but in a very positive light, because you are a fantastic ally and I truly mean that it's. Every time we have a conversation you are there, um, you know saying, look, what can we do more? And I know that you mean it talk to us a little bit about kind of allyship, whilst we um collate some of these questions here, because that is critical, no point. As, uh, women, um, you know preaching to the converted, um, and and sitting around you know moaning about what could be and all these kind of things, whereas actually we ought to bring great men and everyone along the journey yeah, yeah, no it's.
Speaker 3:We've tried to focus on this for a few years. I wouldn't say or claim that we're brilliant at it. There's a couple of. We were first of all trying to say look, your political views or any views on anything shouldn't matter, because what we're trying to do is to bring in greater talent to our firm, not ignore giant pockets of the world if we didn't do it well, and to have an inclusive approach. So they wanted to stay and perform. So it's, of course, in America. Come into a sharper examination, because really what's under attack is this sense of oh, it's not a meritocracy and therefore there's some hidden advantage and therefore I'm disadvantaged. Look, we've never, believed that.
Speaker 3:But we said, look, we have to double down on. This has always been a meritocracy. We try our best. It might be flawed. So this is simply all we're trying to do is to oil our meritocracy better and to make sure that when we can bring in the most diverse talent, everybody has a shot at this meritocracy can bring in the most diverse talent. Everybody has a shot at this meritocracy. Therefore, allyship is crucial because if there's tons of us, then it feels more natural to be ourselves. If you don't look like everybody else or feel like or feel you belong, then you might need more conversations, dialogue so that you can understand how it works.
Speaker 3:The second thing that we've tried to make sure people realize, especially on men we've done we've had like inclusion and allyship training for a while is it's different from coaching. Coaching might be an essential part of it, but it's not sufficient, because then it just sounds like me giving tips. Good luck, you know. Here's how I got here. Here's's what you should do. Perfect, no, you have to put something at risk. You know it's about political capital. You know Geraldine and Catherine are both talking about it. We have a way to influence in a fair way, just to make sure that we have diverse talent pools, that someone understands how the processes work to get promoted, to get selected, that they feel that their voice can be included.
Speaker 3:And that's been a big one, because I think for many years people thought mentorship was vague. Support, general support. And you know we've had lots of conversations with our partnership to say, look, if your answer is just to clap when we talk about this, that actually you're part of the problem, because we need more than clapping, we need people to do something, otherwise we won't nudge the dial at all in our challenge to look more like our clients, to look more like our communities. And then the final piece is you know, not everyone realizes what's the start of sentence. You know, if it's a vague set of leadership skills, yes, I'm going to be a driver of allyship, but what on earth does that look like? So we tried to break it down in small groups leadership training. What's the sentence? That you can start a conversation with someone that's not like you. That might give them a sense that you could be an ally and help and bring some real, not more than coaching and guidance, but help the firm make better decisions.
Speaker 3:But it's a work in progress. We have to repeat it, and we're repeating it even more in the US, because we have to be really clear. This is about meritocracy. We still need diversity and inclusion. We're not going to battle someone else's definition of the word equity, which has become the real flashpoint, because we want to do good work and we think the work is in. Still, how do we support diverse populations coming to our firm? How are we inclusive and how do we act as allies so they don't feel then marginalized and leave and then we have to start again? So there's a few thoughts.
Speaker 1:Thanks ever so much, stephen. And action is the key word. I love that you used moving the dial as well. It's like right on brand. I will not tell everyone that you were paid Joking, joking, um, and I'm asking those that I recognize the names of, not because I'm not including others, but I recognize lots of great names here.
Speaker 1:Um, I can see um nihiraka has asked a question. I'm seeing if my tech skills will allow me to um ask if um nihikara would like to ask this live, but I am not sure quite how to do that, so I'm going to read it out. We have. Oh, let me find the question here, and this is a question to everyone how would you best suggest this tricky market environment where DEI is being as anti-woke term I think can be anti-woke terminology, though we are always working towards approaching it with talent, leadership, development, career progression, elements, powerful elements and also thank you very much for a powerful conversation. Um, I, who might like to take this, can see, geraldine, you've been nodding intensely. Um, as I have to put you on the spot here, can I come across here to to you with some? Um? Essentially, we are seeing a lot of this kind of anti-work sentiment. You know you are brilliant when it comes to leadership, talent development. I'm not just saying this to butter you up.
Speaker 4:You really are, and you've worked for lots of global organizations, so perfectly poised to answer thoughts yeah, I, I think, um, uh, yeah, it all depends on the organization, of course, and and what's sensitive and what's not sensitive? Now, so in in our case, for example, um and I absolutely get the question, but we've just appointed a new managing director in the states for our American operation Starts in a couple of days, and one of the things he's most proud of was what he did around IDE at his previous employer at Coke, and we decided to put that into the announcement, the public announcement that went external and internal, that we were really proud of that. That wasn't the reason, just the only reason, why he was employed, but it was something that he wanted to put down as a career achievement. So I think there is something about you know. A suggestion is perhaps you continue on the course that you're on, but a more subtle approach.
Speaker 4:I think one of the other things that you can do is look at all the proof points for DEI in your organisation, and that might be everything from office design, whereby you want to consult with neurodiverse employees around noise levels and space and lighting, right through to all of your talent processes. So what are all the touch points where DEI feels like it comes to life and it's part of the employee experience. And mapping all of that means that actually you're looking at recruitment or promotion or career conversations, or the way in which you advertise or all of the different things it could be around policy, et cetera, and actually you just do it subtly, you just bring, you know, dei into the way in which you operate because I think you know, as Marari said, it is often that this is about talent and how you manage talent, and I think there are many, many proof points and everything that you do in the employee experience that you can bring to life, without necessarily dei being the only talking point, that can be another way in thanks very much, geraldine.
Speaker 1:um maria, seen you've just popped up on screen and I also love that everyone's sending all these little emojis, so lots of little hearts are going up that Geraldine was speaking so clearly. This is excellent.
Speaker 2:Marari, I think. By the way, geraldine, your points were amazing and one of the things I'm reading the questions and one of the things that I find lately with the work that I'm doing now as a consultant is I don't know if I'm speaking to the converted and one of the things to keep in mind with these conversations so forgive me if I mispronounce your name, I think it's Niharika, I don't know in terms of your organization and the governance structure where you can add influence, where you can add power, where you can add voice, but one of the things about this time and this kind of merges into a question that came for Stephen and I how do you keep balance in your approach, in equity, when straddling the UK and the US and the legal challenges and changes and clarification with people, et cetera I think Stephen said this at the beginning of the conversation to a degree for HR people, for talent leaders, this feels like HR. Sorry, it feels like COVID. You are navigating uncharted waters, right? I would have never thought two years ago, or even a year ago, that the EDI conversation would be what it is today, and so it forces me back to that COVID seat where I could not have imagined that I was working in a financial services company and we would all be working from home. That was just unfathomable, right? And when things like this happened, you kind of have to go back to the basics in terms of how you learn how to communicate.
Speaker 2:And one of the things thematically with these questions and with the blowback or the things that are happening, is to be mindful, because there are two things happening for people, right, if you are at the top of the food chain, you may not necessarily feel unsafe to speak up about these things. Equally, if you are at the top and you're close to retirement, you may not want to ruffle feathers, right? So I think it's important to take a step back and realize who are you. I agree with Geraldine, there are ways of subtly bringing things into a conversation, but I think to add to that, there's also a way of understanding and knowing your audience and within your organization. Any organization I have yet to see one that is of size where everybody thinks the same and thinks that it's anti-woke or woke. So you have to take your time to almost revert back to when you started the organization and you were doing a listening tour to figure out who's who, where they stand, what matters to them and what doesn't right. So there's that element of it. It's almost like reintroducing yourself to people, listening and learning where they stand in, what is happening, what bothers them, what do they feel needs to move forward versus taking a position.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing is I wholeheartedly agree ERGs are incredibly powerful. They're large groups of people, but the last thing you wanna make them is an echo chamber or a whistleblowing group, and the only way that I can see that I have from experience see them work well is when they have the structure and the sponsorship from the right people. So if you currently have an ERG, regardless of the size relevant to your organization you know your women's group is likely to be the larger group of people. It might be a good time to rebalance what is everybody's role in that ERG and ensuring and I love that Stephen brought this up too when he was talking about your HR people, but ensuring from a safety perspective that the roles make sense for people. You might have had someone that's really outspoken before but now doesn't want to be pinged or pegged into something that may affect their career.
Speaker 2:So maybe it's time to rebalance the governance structure of that group, figure out who your sponsors are, figure out who your allies are and maybe trim down the goals. I'm not saying dim them, but trim them to the things that actually are relevant for the current time period. Right, I hope that makes sense, but I just think that a lot gets lost in translation and when it does, the best thing to do is to take that little bit of a step back and revisit your governance structure, revisit your rights, revisit who are the people that are going to affect change for you, and not look or seek echo chambers, not look or seek for people to join you in sort of like an internal. Someone said it and I forgive me because I don't remember who said this, but um, working communities are I think it was you, geraldine are um reflections of society. You don't want the protest group at work to be your ERG. I don't think that that's effective it's.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting, and you know what again I'm thinking okay, it's another topic for another webinar is actually the power of employee resource groups and also how. I think what you're saying rari is, and especially in the us context. They are interestingly quite close to certain unions very different in the uk you look at maturity curves for everything from employee resource groups to other community vehicles within organisations Very different. So super interesting point. I am conscious of time and technically we've only got a couple of minutes left and there are a whole number of questions we haven't got to, so apologies, apologies if we haven't. I'm really quickly going to come to a couple that we have in here and then what I will do is I'll do my best to summarise some of the key points, of which there have been many, but don't worry, we will follow up with a summary from today's session and certainly for those who have registered to watch on demand I know a number of people have Let me just ask these last questions. Oh, my goodness, there's a couple of always pose these everyone.
Speaker 1:If I haven't come to your questions, we can always pose these again afterwards. But um, does one manage the risk as dei and um they get bundled into talent, culture remits. The expertise to create equitable, diverse, inclusive organizations may get diluted as specific DEI roles work collaboratively to embed inclusive ways of working across all function areas. And I may tie that actually to Ray's question. Ray, thank you as well.
Speaker 1:Who is asking about whether there ought to be a necessary reframe of DEI and what that needs to look like? We have acknowledgement here of the clear link to talent again, which I know you've all mentioned, which I think is excellent. So we are seeing some trends. Is it right for a reframe DEI to remain largely the domain of CHROs and CPOs? That is a good one. And then Claire, asking about, you know, organisations slowing down in light of recent legislation. So I've kind of bundled those three together, but I wonder if there's any comments from anyone around that, in particular the acknowledgement of whether this remains CHRO and CPO domain. So I think that's a particularly interesting one. Would anyone like to take it?
Speaker 3:before I try and summarise, I'm happy to just throw one quick comment to that last bit. No, no, and I was very fortunate that my previous managing partner, who just moved, just went into a different role, was our chief diversity officer. He decided to do this because he said if it's not central to him and leadership, then yeah, it becomes a sort of HR policy.
Speaker 3:And then the second is I don't blame organizations that are saying they do have to reframe and rethink. It depends where you're at. For some, I think it's reaffirming back to. This is what we were trying to do. Let's reaffirm that we're still trying to do it.
Speaker 3:But the key is to be precise, because we've suffered this. We may stop an activity that was formerly part of our DEI strategy and everyone reads into it that we now lack faith. We're crumbling, but it's the same as we do a bunch of things in learning. You know we spent money on the metaverse, thinking that might have been the future of learning four years ago, and it turned out it wasn't. There are many elements of what we do in DEI simply didn't work.
Speaker 3:So the key is to be precise, I think, because, except that, people will read stuff into what you're doing. So be precise about what you're still trying to achieve and why a lot of it still works and why some of it doesn't. And then we have to be honest about the things that we're changing, because we don't want to get into semantic walls and we want to do good work still and we want to stay legal in every country we're in. And I think if you can keep stuff in buckets, at least help people. It won't keep everyone happy. They may still be dismayed with some of the choices you know we all have to make. But it's about being precise, I think, because it's the vagueness that gets everyone thinking. Everything means something that you didn't intend it to great answer, steven, and and this is it.
Speaker 1:You know there is a lot of fear at the moment around of the who should, I shouldn't, I have said this, that and the other, um, the vagueness, the gray areas, I think a lot of the time what causes this worry and uncertainty? We've had some brilliant gratitude comments, actually, so thank you everyone for being really positive. We've had Tangy Morgan oh, great name says excellent discussion with comments that are thought provoking, especially in navigating the US administration's current focus on dismantling DEI and the global impact on industries. A lot of people saying very, very insightful session. Thank you, very thought provoking as ever. I am going to try and summarise and I'm thinking my goodness, this is a job. Kudos to myself for trying to summarise all the insights from this brilliant panel. So what I will say very, very quickly is some of the pieces that have really stood out for me is talent.
Speaker 1:Talent has been a theme that has woven through the entirety of this conversation, mentioned by each and every one of you. So paying attention to talent as a strategy, whatever that is linked to within HR, within the roles that may be chief diversity officer, type roles or strategy roles We've seen broadly that, especially in the UK and the US as well, the employee expectations are rising. There is an expectation we are seeing now for employees saying they expect employers to actively promote DEI, despite the rhetoric, and in the US, you know, again, we're seeing a lot of the expectations being that CEOs speak out about business for good amongst key pertinent social impact aspects Again, something which I think all of you have touched on in one guise or another. So talent and integrity, especially at times like this where we are seeing kind of perpetuating headlines that sometimes you think, my goodness, what are we going to see next? Having that integrity and authenticity rather authenticity and trust is key because this is a world where people can take to anything from a social media platform to say what they are thinking. It's very, you know, it's very quick for information to get out there. There's a lot of information out there as well, and so you know Stephen said kind of this anxiety over some of the grey areas and what to do or say. Actually, you know, we as leaders and organisations don't always know the answers to everything, but actually having integrity and that authenticity and trust at the heart and being able to reflect that, as everyone has done and Geraldine on the employer brand side and actually saying you know what we are going to double down.
Speaker 1:We are doing our best. These are the core areas that we are focusing on because, simply put, you know, no one can eat the whole elephant at once. It's focusing on, say, parenthood strategies, focusing on life moments, focusing on certain areas that we can impact, whether it be from an allyship perspective, as Stephen has mentioned, or whether it be, you know, from looking at, say, the gender dimension, as Catherine has mentioned, and looking at where we're putting our investments into a lot of Murari's points. So, thank you very much everyone for joining us. I hope that you have got something out of this session.
Speaker 1:I certainly have learned a huge amount, and there's never quite enough time on these webinars to rattle through everything, but we are going to be doing another webinar very soon. We have one next month, for which we will pop a lovely slide up very shortly. You can see it right here. You may recognize some of these fabulous individuals. Right here. You may recognize some of these um fabulous individuals um. Anise misagi from pladis. Uh. Vildan oppen um. Oh, my goodness, my dyslexia. I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly. But openga um cersei um from um. I've completely forgotten the company name, but it will come straight back to me henkel, henkel, umkel.
Speaker 1:A brilliant organisation. Jenny Hall, who is from Royal Mail, is the Chief Comms Officer and Eleanor Arribigan, who is Group Communications for Hiscox. So brilliant sector agnostic panel that we have here and just before we go, thank you. Thank you everyone for all of these lovely comments. I would like to just add final thought from each of our panelists, if I may, and without putting one spot too much. Um, um, katherine, I think needs to go, but an inspirational kind of thought, or just one lasting thing, whether it is you're giving advice to your younger self or it is something to give people as a takeaway. Um, could you give me a little? Um, you know, could be 10, 10, 20 seconds to leave the audience with today and those that are watching on demand. Um, geraldine, you've unmuted first, or Catherine, you're already unmuted.
Speaker 5:So, catherine, I've got a meeting waiting for me to join it, so I'm gonna have to go, I'm afraid.
Speaker 1:But uh, thank you everybody so much. We'll go, geraldine. Thank you, we'll go, geraldine.
Speaker 4:Rari Stephen yeah, I just think um do what you believe is the right thing very wise words, thank you.
Speaker 2:I would say do whatever possible to quiet the noise, invest in your time yourself, connect with your values, but ignore the noise.
Speaker 3:It's a great dialogue. I think for me it's about accepting that you can't please everybody, but don't please nobody. So again, to me it's about you know what's a value-driven set of practical actions. I'd rather help one person than write a better policy that doesn't really seem to help anyone right now. Thank you for inviting me to this panel. It's been great.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, everyone. If emojis are a sign of how well it's gone, I would say it's gone very well. So thank you all very much. I know how incredibly busy you are. I look forward to catching up with you all.