Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Empowering Stories: Siobhan Carr's Journey in Leadership
Inclusive Leadership: Siobhan Carr's Inspiring Journey at ODEON Cinemas
Join us on the Inclusive Leaders Podcast as we talk with Siobhan Carr, Group Head of Talent and Inclusion at ODEON Cinemas. Sivan shares her remarkable career journey from a cinema manager in Dublin to a strategic global role, discussing the critical importance of inclusivity, psychological safety, and the continuous improvement approach in leadership. Her personal experience with multiple sclerosis is also highlighted, providing an authentic look at resilience and the value of creating a supportive work environment.
Hello and welcome to the Inclusive Leaders podcast. This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I am delighted to be joined by Siobhan Carr. Siobhan is the Group Head of Talent and Inclusion for Odeon Cinemas Group. She has a wealth of experience within hospitality and cinemas. She's worked her way all the way from being cinema manager right up the way to this group position and I'm very excited to have her on the show. Welcome, siobhan.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Tell all of our listeners a little bit about how you came to be where you are today. Obviously, I have the benefit of knowing, but I think it's a really fantastic personal professional story. So tell us a little bit before we deep dive into some of the subjects for today.
Speaker 2:Okay, fab. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, I started within this industry, within the cinema industry, 20 years ago. This year I started. I'm based in dublin and I've managed to be able to to maintain my roots in dublin as I grew my career which is really important to me and started in one of our cinemas in blanchestown and in dublin city and I've worked over the years and all of our cinemas basically across um ireland, worked in a role, worked in a head of field operations role, worked in head of productivity role for the UK and Ireland and I think moving into that role in particular, I built loads of skills. I've taken all the skills that I've gathered across my career working with people.
Speaker 2:I went in that head of productivity role. I was in a much more strategic role. I was much more kind of away from that people element of the business and that's when it really crystallized within me that working in the people function I think was where I wanted to bring my career. So I then moved into the head of talent and development for the UKI and that was my first time out of operations into the fold of the people team and really starting to be able to have a much bigger impact on talent development, career journeys, the culture across the business, which I find incredibly exciting that I'm able to do that or that was able to do that. And then, after having done that for a couple of years, it was an opportunity to apply for a group head of role, which I did, and after a thorough internal recruitment process, I was fortunate enough to move into the role that I'm currently doing, the group head of talent and inclusion, so supporting our talent and inclusion strategy across the nine countries that we operate.
Speaker 2:We're in the UK now, representation in northern Europe and southern Europe and, you know, a really great opportunity for me to learn so much more about the different cultures that we operate in. How does that influence the development, the talent, the inclusion strategy in those countries? How can I, in a group central role, create a global framework but that can be able to be localized in the countries that it needs to be localized in? And really trying to learn and understand and I still am and I will still continue to learn more about the cultural impact and what does inclusion mean in our different countries, you know, and where are they in terms of that inclusivity and how it matters to them, what it means to them has been really incredibly insightful and thought-provoking for me personally and professionally over the last 18 months in this role, and always considering the impact of a language change. If we're creating a piece of content and we change the language, does that change the meaning? You know, how do we ensure that we are creating something that is fit for purpose but feels authentic for each one of the countries that we operate?
Speaker 2:So, um, I would say I count myself pretty fortunate, but I've also worked really hard to get to where I am now as well. I've taken opportunities, I've put myself out there, I have lent on my skills, I have elevated the skills where I'm strong on and I've really tried to develop the areas that you know there's opportunity development areas for me as well. So, um, throughout kind of the last number of years in particular, I've tried to stay away from fortunate language and lucky language. I am those things. But I've also worked hard to get where I am today and I I think we don't always acknowledge that in ourselves um, all the time, um, particularly as females at times. So I, um, I try to change that language and try and change that with other people as well a bit, and just kind of not call them out but like, yes, you are lucky, but you've also worked hard to enable yourself to be in the position to you know, for myself to step into a group role, to step into spaces I haven't been in previously to build relationships with people at different parts of the business. So all those things have led me to the, the position that I'm, that I'm now in in today and still growing, still learning every day, like I said, particularly around the cultural variances in which we operate. So, um, that's a little bit about, about where I've gotten to so far.
Speaker 1:Wow, siobhan, that is such a lot, and I love how you tell that story as you were speaking. It made me think of one of my very favorite expressions, which is hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard, and I remember a CEO mentor of mine always telling me that. And this justification, I think that we feel often as women but not exclusively as women, but often as women is, oh my goodness, I'm almost feeling a little shy about talking about some of these things. But actually you're completely right is you've worked incredibly hard to get to this place and actually when you look at your career and your career journey, it is really linear, but actually every couple of years you've moved and you started right the way from almost this grassroots position in a little town in Dublin, which I think is fabulous now, to going into the group role.
Speaker 1:And I think what's going to be really interesting to unpick and unpack during this podcast is how some of these cultural nuances, language nuances, have almost evolved, because that thing about inclusion and culture and I think you know people see it as this one thing, but actually it's living, it's breathing, it's eating, it's constantly changing.
Speaker 1:You take, you know, one dimension just as an example, off the top of my head, lgbt, lgbtq plus, ia, and and and the different words, different meanings in different countries, as you alluded to. Before we move on, if you wouldn't mind, I'd love you to share a little bit about yourself personally, if you wouldn't mind, because I know you know certainly at Dial when we talk about inclusivity and talent we are. You know, know we're often proud to talk about the different facets of inclusion that make us who we are and have formed a part of our being, and I know disability and neurodiversity in particular, and certainly something I share, being ADHD and dyslexic myself is something close to your heart. Would you mind sharing a little about why this is so important and whether you feel any of your personal aspects have helped you or propelled you or affected your career journey?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, definitely, happy to, happy to share. So, um, I've always, like very much, had a passion and authenticity and an interest in in people and creating that right, that right culture, and um, I come, I believe I come from a real kind of place of privilege as well. Um, you know, in terms of being able to, how do I help, support those around me? And, um, I suppose, something that really shaped me about four years ago now, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and so I was in my early 40s. I was just outside the catchment of where you normally get got, get diagnosed um.
Speaker 2:I hadn't, um, I was. I do consider myself pretty fortunate. I hadn't been ill for a long time. It was caught relatively, relatively early, but was still a shock. You know, it was not something that I had been expecting. I hadn't, like I said, had symptoms for a long time or challenges for a long time.
Speaker 2:And I suppose once I got over the initial shock of my diagnosis and what does that mean and what does it mean for me in a professional capacity, am I still going to be able to do the work that I do? I'm still going to be able to do the work that I do. I'm still going to be able to commit fully because if I'm in something I'm in, I'm in all the way and will I still be able to do that and still balance the needs, these new needs that I had for my, for myself, um, in terms of you know, um, that diagnosis and that impact and going on treatment, and how will that impact? You know, my ability to not just work but to live. I guess you know, um, you know, and after I kind of worked through, kind of all those feelings and trying to understand, I'm learning more about the illness, the disability every day and how that impacts and how I can manage it and and all that type of stuff. But what I suppose it gave me a real appreciation in terms of um all of a sudden had a label that I wasn't sure I was comfortable with. Um, that's kind of the reference to the privilege piece. I didn't feel maybe previously that I was necessarily labeled and now all of a sudden I have this label of you know MS as a recognized disability and that I'm going to have for the rest of my life and you know so really helped. It really made me think about that impact of you know how we are speaking about the different facets of diversity and you know the way we speak to them, about our colleagues, how we explain them, how we support them and understanding what they are and what sits underneath them and that type of stuff. So it was a real you know, after the initial shock you know I still have down days like it's not all you know roses, and there's still days where it impacts me significantly um, but I was able to, I suppose, look at it in a way is how does that make me better? How can I learn from it? How can I support others maybe in a similar situation. How can I create, in the role that I'm in, create the psychological safety within our business that people can disclose if they have a disability that they feel comfortable disclosing they have a disability.
Speaker 2:80% of people that have disabilities are hidden, you know, including mine. I have quite an expressive face, so my line manager now knows if I'm struggling because you'll see it on my face, but in the whole, it is a hidden disability. So you know how do I bring that into? How I feel and how I felt and how I felt having to tell the business as well that this is something that I had and I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know how it's going to progress. I don't know what it will be like in a year's time, in two years' time.
Speaker 2:All I know is what I can control now and I manage that as best I can in my medication. Like I said, I manage it through my diet, my lifestyle. I manage it through a work-life balance that I've never had previously, because it crystallized what's important to me, um, in terms of managing my own health and wellness. So I look at it from a couple of ways. How do I, you know, manage it from a work-life balance perspective, but also how do I use it in work to help, like I said, create that environment where people feel comfortable sharing. I have an incredible relationship with my line manager, a high level of trust, so I felt comfortable sharing that with them.
Speaker 2:But does everyone have that same opportunity in the business?
Speaker 2:And I'm in a position now to be able to help create that culture, you know, where everyone can, you know, share kind of what is is happening, whether that's with a disability, whether that's with maybe they're moving into a carer role for somebody that they've hadn't, you know, had to do before, and how does that impact, you know, their working life?
Speaker 2:How can we create a more flexible environment where needed?
Speaker 2:So, um, for me it was about taking after the initial shock and and the what-ifs and okay, let's come back to what I can control and how I can use it to help, particularly in the role that I'm in, to kind of help create that culture where people can not only kind of speak about it or share the fact that they have a disability potentially, but know that there is a support network there for them, there is a net there for them, really passionately about having everyone having the same experience that I've had, because it's been incredible for me in terms of my interaction with the business and what I've needed and how they've supported me.
Speaker 2:And I want everyone all 9,000 colleagues across OCG to know that they have that net there for them, they have that support there for them as much as I had, because I sit in a place where I really understand that, I really know what's available and, you know, making sure everyone across the business has that same experience or that same understanding, whether they need it or not, is a real driver for me and the role that I'm in now thank you for articulating that so beautifully and sharing Siobhan um, I mean, not only is it really touching on a personal level, but also you can see how wonderful your manager in the organisation has been, but the positive impact that will have with not only you as a leader being a beacon of psychological safety because we know the trickle effect that then filters down to others.
Speaker 1:Then knowing actually I'm okay to be able to share this High levels of trust very important High levels of psychological safety, certainly with management understanding, but equally fantastic for the business because you look at someone who's been with the organisation for many years has clearly been very progressive for a significant portion of time.
Speaker 1:It's retention of talent, and we look at the global marketplace right now and how so much is changing. One of the biggest benefits sorry, one of the biggest aspects or company uh, benefits and usps they have is is retaining great talent, which in turn, is driving engagement, allowing the positive culture to support others who are coming up within the organisation. 9,000 colleagues across OCG, as you say, that is not a small number at all and it makes me think very much of almost these life moments, because all um, and it makes me think very much of almost these life moments, because you know life moments, um, you know, certainly pertaining to disability. I think the numbers something like 16 million people in the uk alone, nearly a quarter of the population have got a disability, and so being able to be open about that and find interventions internally and pivot it then as a positive to support others, I think is absolutely critical on a humanity level, but also for great business as well, within the role that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I've had two role changes, like two progressive role changes since I've been diagnosed, since I've, you know, shared with business in terms of um, where I'm at kind of health-wise and stuff, so it's I, I feel like I'm almost like proof of I'm that living proof, you know, and in in the business and that's what makes me happy to share my story, whether that be internally or externally. I've been, you know, we have obviously, communication platforms within our own business where I have shared, in terms of where I'm at, you know, my diagnosis, how it impacted and how I use it to try and propel myself forward, to try and identify with more people, to understand more people and how we use it as a fuel, and I suppose that's what makes it so easy to be so passionate about it, because I want to create, like I said, that same environment that I've been lucky to to be in or to be part of um. You know how do we create that in the 250 cinemas that we operate across the group as well. You know the way.
Speaker 2:Like, like, 80% of people get don't are not born with a disability. They will, you know, they will get a disability at some point during their life. So it's not. You know, I was in my early 40s before I got mine, you know. So you think you're on this certain trajectory and you just never know what's going to happen. But knowing that you're in the right environment to support you through that is really really important.
Speaker 1:Makes all the difference, and I think it's a perfect inflection point now for us to start talking about how inclusion has been woven into all elements of business. Absolutely right, you are our living example of how this has happened, but clearly, there's a number of strategic pillars within the organisation, those nine territories that you've already touched upon, and you know, when it comes to things like inclusivity and culture, which aren't always linear, it's super important, then, to weave this throughout, nuance it as per country, demographic and down down. So talk to us a little bit about how I know a very big question but a little bit about how you've casually woven inclusion into all elements of the business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and woven is that word, isn't it? It's been like you know, we're on this journey in terms of how do we take, you know, all the elements around inclusion and weave it right across the business, and it feels like a shared accountability, a shared desire to move forward, to always continue to evolve and create a continuous improvement approach to our culture and to inclusion right across the business. So that woven element is so important to us. I work in talent and inclusion and I look at talent, I look at development, I look at inclusion as a trio, as a triad, and everything that we talk about in terms of talent. We bring the inclusion lens into everything we talk about in terms of inclusion. We bring the talent lens in. If we're, you know, nominating colleagues for external development programs with some of our other partners, we look at, ok, where is the top talent coming through? How is that informing who are the right people to maybe go on those programs or to be recognized in an external manner at this point? So trying to bring the two things on the development piece together. In terms of development, um, a couple of years ago we created an internal um incredible leadership framework program, um, and that's kind of that beacon of um, our leadership kind of behaviors, our leadership that has in inclusion, and so the, the print, or know myself, so we self and building kind of awareness. Our guiding principle is around by team, so spreading that out. What do I understand? The teams. And then, right anchored in the middle is the creating inclusive and collaborative environment. So you know, we talk about psychological safety, how to, you know, support our leaders and understanding what does it mean? And to demystify it a little bit because it can sound quite intimidating, so how do we kind of create, you know, some the development there so they understand how they can create that environment, understand their impact as a leader in terms of around the culture around them and how their team look to them to create that environment. And then our last two guiding principles around create our future. How do we look at things innovatively and then finally making things happen so inclusive, to be there in the middle kind of really anchoring that whole entire program and ensuring that, like I said, it's really woven and we speak a lot about psychological safety in there in terms of how to create that right environment and being in a leadership role is incredibly, you know, incredibly impactful and so helping leaders understand, you know, their impact on those around them, whether that be within a team or laterally, or on their stakeholders, and how they can help support. You know, always creating that right environment is really key for us.
Speaker 2:We started that program with our C-suite and our EXCO members in 2020, late 2022. And you know it's coming through the different layers of the business. It's starting to come into cinemas this year. So we're all very much moving forward in the same, with the same language, with the same approach to behaviors and with inclusivity anchored there in the middle of it. So it's really important that we're all speaking the same, although we speak different languages, that we are all speaking in this in the same. You know that, that same leadership language and you know when those kind of principles that have brought you through that's they're quite simple language know myself, value our teams and that that was really intentional to enable direct translation, so we don't lose the meaning um of when it is translated into our multiple uh, multiple languages. So that was a really kind of key element of when the program was created and to ensure that we will be able to translate in a way that it keeps the meaning but it becomes, you know, um accessible to all our colleagues right across the countries that we operate.
Speaker 2:So, like I said, that's now starting to come into our cinema leadership teams, which is, uh, really exciting and seeing how they're responding to to the development and um is, yeah, it's, it's brilliant.
Speaker 2:You know, germany and spain italy in the last two weeks, all delivered this training in their own, in their own language, for the first time. The internal trainers delivering it. You know it was incredible for them to move into a space where they're able to deliver in local language as opposed to needing to do it um in english. So they really enjoyed the experience. Um and, like I said, to see how the colleagues are responding to the training and having everyone together to do that and it's, it's incredible and very live in the business and very visible it. You can feel it across the business and, as we continue to roll it out, across our all layers of leadership. So that's probably our, our kind of broadest example of where we've kind of brought everything together and you know, some of our talent, most talent leaders, are delivering it. You know it's a real kind of key development opportunity for our teams and with inclusivity layered throughout the entire programme that's super exciting.
Speaker 1:It's a brilliant, tangible example, isn't it? We touched on the trickle effect before, but what's really nice is you're looking at these multi-faceted aspects with inclusion at the heart. How does that fit, then, within high performance talent and identifying great talent, but equally feeding it down, meaning that we can keep nurturing the pipeline of talent, because, as you and I know both, being from the world of talent is often the higher up the classical corporate hierarchy go, the lower and the lower some of the aspects of diversity are, and so the fact that you're looking at all you know, almost an integrated approach to things like psychological safety, localization, etc. Etc. Feeding off the leadership framework with the Xcode to start with, is really nice, and it will be exciting to hear how everything turns out. So I gather you'll be bringing everyone then back together to find out what the local country experiences have been yeah, yeah, exactly, and we're continuing.
Speaker 2:We go back into it all the time. Exco maybe have gone through you know their five friends. We're going back in regularly to kind of keep it, you know, updated, keep on building on the learning, keep on building on the language, keep on building and to ensure that it's um, it's sustainable and impactful and alive throughout the business and, like I said, to see it now in with our cinema leaders is is really really exciting, um, um and yeah, it's a great place to be and will continue. You know it's never, it's never, you're never there, whether that be with development, without being inclusivity, without being um, talent there's always. It's always a continuous improvement approach. Okay, how, how can we get better? How can we learn from delivering it this way? How can we do it better for the next cohort? How can we continually improve the experience for our colleagues? Always, always, always.
Speaker 1:Amazing. You can tell that you've done continuous improvement and strategy in the earlier roles, because they're all now feeding into this. One is super. So let's pivot then back before we close, because I could clearly talk to you all day, siobhan. Uh, let's go into a couple of lightning round questions, because inclusion, culture, talent all my favorite things all featured heavily throughout this podcast. What does inclusion, diversity, culture mean to you personally? Because I know it often means different things to different people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:For me it's around all voices kind of being given that opportunity to be heard, regardless of whether maybe someone wants to step into a space or wants to, you know, be very vocal. I think it's really important to me that they know they can, um, and that they do want to, that their thoughts, their ideas, their perspectives will be valued and will be heard. So it's that kind of you know, knowing that everyone has that equal opportunity to to use their voice. You know, no matter where they're sitting right across the business, no matter where, if they represent a facet of diversity or not, but being able to use their voice and know that they will be heard is really important. That consistent experience of our culture for everyone across the business is really. What I strive for is for everyone to be aware of the culture that we are creating, what that means for them, how they can step in, step out whatever is right for them that particular time, and that consistency of everyone being aware and part of it, um, kind of is is really important to me.
Speaker 1:I'm already thinking of like a t-shirt slogan from what you've said. It's like living it, nurturing it, all voices heard, but equally ensuring the sustainability.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's your secret to success? Another big question.
Speaker 2:I think probably for me it's probably been my authenticity, I really like people, probably been my authenticity. I really like people. I just genuinely like people and I genuinely want to create or help support, create a culture where people feel really valued and feel like they belong, because not every business does that or not every experience is like that and you know. So that's really important to me, that people, you know that I can help create that, that environment for people and that's what kind of really drives my get out of bed every morning and try and make things a little bit better for for the people that I work with. Because I genuinely care.
Speaker 2:And I think when I look back on my career and you know how that's grown, that's been at the heart of, and sometimes I'm like, oh, that can't be the only why, but I think it's enough. It's been enough to get me where I am now and I think, as long as I have the right balance of business awareness with that people focus, that gets the business the right output and the people in at the right output to make the business successfully. So that second element, that kind of business lens, has grown more and more in me obviously as I've progressed through my career, but people at the heart and marrying those two um is what I think has been my success so far.
Speaker 1:It's not over yet, hopefully no, it's fascinating I think, more so now in the current market environment which you, you know often seeing things change very, very rapidly, having the human centric leadership but also being able to be commercial and not having the need to always justify that. If I reflect on the last 10, 20 years, it was often kind of corporate social responsibility and these kind of things. You know, almost there being something slightly separate with businesses doing well. Actually, weaving the two together equals something really fantastic. And some of the best leaders that I have seen they've got very high emotional intelligence and people skills yet at the same time, are very business savvy and commercially focused, very nimble, um, and I think this is, you know, one of the key skills that we, um, we need for our leaders of the future. Yeah, definitely, who's inspired you most throughout your life? Because I know you started off, you know, talking very, very, very nicely about, almost you know, these humble beginnings. Who's inspired you most?
Speaker 2:I would say it's my dad. My dad came from really humble beginnings. Like lived in a very small fishing village in the northwest of Ireland and he spoke exclusively Gaelic. When he was growing up he didn't speak English and he made the move to Dublin and into primary school teaching when he was really young, so moved away from home and he really built an astounding career for himself and he spent a large portion of the later part of his career as the head of the trade union for primary school teachers in Ireland and his desire to make the education system better for both teachers and for pupils was incredible.
Speaker 2:And to see that live and to see the commitment that he put into it, often at the detriment of, maybe, family time or the lives of children and the people who teach those children better. I know it's obviously much bigger realm than what I'm working in, but you can take the same ethos, the same principle and apply that. He was determined, he was, he had a north star and he there was nothing that was going to stop him achieving that, because if he made the life of one pupil better or one teacher better, like that's incredible. And if I make the life of one colleague better or one leader better like that's also incredible, and so, yeah, he's been a huge. Inspiration obviously remains I'm lucky enough to have to still have my dad, so he remains as one for me.
Speaker 1:That's. I'm sure he's incredibly proud of you. I hope he's going to listen to this podcast as well. And finally, if you could look back or give yourself advice, your younger self advice, what might you say?
Speaker 2:um, I think it'd be around. Don't be afraid or feel the fear and do it anyway in terms of stepping into a space, whether that be a physical room with people that you haven't, that you view in a certain way in terms of hierarchical potentially, but not to be afraid, or to be afraid and to step in anyway and to know your value in the room. You've been asked in for a reason, or you've positioned yourself to get into that room, into that table, onto that zoom call for a reason, um, and trust in um yourself, uh, to be that you have the right to be there, um, because there's definitely been, you know, that's that little bit of imposter syndrome coming in. That's definitely been something that is, at points, kind of been um, something that I've um, struggled with in my career. So, um, yeah, feel the fear and and do it anyway and just trust in yourself and that you're there for a reason, um, and um, enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Siobhan, thank you so much. I'm wondering where I start to summarize today's session, but it has been really enlightening, really empowering, and I think there's going to be so many people who really take away something special from listening to this today, feel the fear and do it anyway. Obviously, a key person in quote makes me think very, very much of Susan Jefferson I think it was who coined the book, one of my real favourites. But one of the real kind of themes that's woven throughout this podcast that has really inspired me is the fact that talent really is everywhere and the resilience that you've shown and I think the resilience that feeds into organisations from having these kind of aspects of psychological, psychological safety. It's something that we really need in the modern world right now and certainly the world of work, because the world of work is changing so rapidly.
Speaker 1:There's a lot that we're seeing geopolitically in the papers about you know lots of things, um, you know up and down, and so having this really fantastic, consistent approach to inclusion, to culture, to talent, to psychological safety, to systematically working throughout the veins of the organisation, almost to actually properly embed things, it's clear to see from everything that you've said not only about the odonian cinemas group culture that innovation, high performing talent is at the heart, but there's really that investment in ensuring the right environment is curated and nurtured to ensure that lots of different types of individuals can thrive.
Speaker 1:And you are, as I think you mentioned in the podcast, a living example of actually life moments, career progression and being ultimately very successful and moving into that group role. But, at the same time, what I particularly love is the humility with it, because we have to look up within organisations and see people that have some kind of resemblance to us or we feel are also human and perhaps we could see ourselves like that one day in the future. Um, which brings me right the way back to your dad and the importance of early intervention, because that's how we learn, that's how we progress, um. So thank you, siobhan, it's been really fantastic having you here thank you so so much.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate it. It's been lovely to chat.
Speaker 1:My name's Leila McKenzie-Dallas, the founder and CEO of Darl Global. You've been listening to Siobhan Carr from Odeon Cinemas Group. Please do make sure you download the Inclusive Leaders podcast. You can find it on any of your favourite podcast channels or apps Apple, spotify, wherever your preference, or you can visit us directly at wwwdialglobalorg. Forward slash podcast and we'll put all the show notes links to Odian and Siobhan's profile in there. If you have any questions at all. Until next week, we'll look forward to seeing you again very soon and thank you for listening.