Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
From Fitting In to Leading with Integrity: Sanjiv Gossain’s Journey of Identity, Leadership, and Ethical Innovation
What happens when you blend personal evolution with professional excellence? Discover the remarkable journey of Sanjiv Gossain, who migrated to the UK as a child and navigated the complexities of identity, culture, and leadership. From overcoming the challenges of fitting in during the 1970s to embracing his unique identity in diverse environments like the US, Sanjiv's story is a testament to resilience and growth. He shares how pivotal experiences and roles, including his time as global CTO at Cambridge Technology Partners, shaped his path to becoming a prominent business leader.
In an era where AI and digital transformation are redefining industries, Sanjiv sheds light on the critical role of human connection and ethical leadership. Hear about the inspiring influence of a female leader whose inclusive approach made every voice count, emphasizing the need for vigilance against biases in AI systems. This episode does not shy away from addressing how technology can either challenge or reinforce societal biases, urging for ongoing dialogue and education to ensure AI's ethical integration into society.
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Hello and welcome to a special podcast series called the CEO Activist. On this series, I have the opportunity to meet with and interview inspirational and forward-thinking CEOs and senior executives who have a real agency and interest in driving business for good, often through utilization of inclusion as a commercial lever for economic growth and prosperity. Today, I'm joined by a fabulous individual. His name is Sanjiv Ghosain. He is the general manager and head of EMEA for Rise on Business. He's been at the firm since 2022, and he has overall responsibility for the organization's global enterprise business in the EMEA region. He's had a huge amount of international experience, having lived in America for over a decade and working for globally recognized firms such as Cognizant. He's also an advisor and a mentor, an advocate and an ally. He's recently learned his expertise to celebrating women in sales, of which many of the Verizon women were very proudly named as a final piece. And Sanjiv I'm sure you'll tell me off for saying this, but Sanjiv is actually a published author and he holds a board directorship from Henley Business School.
Speaker 2:author and he holds a board directorship from Henley Business School. Welcome, Sanjib.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you very much, Leila Nice, to be here. Thanks for having me on. So let's go right back to the beginning. Tell us a little bit about you, how you came to be where you are today, whether you saw yourself in this role and all the great things that led you to this place.
Speaker 2:Sure, so let me start back, if that's okay. When I when we came to this country because I live in England and my parents came to England when I was four years old and when my father and mother moved here and then they decided to stay here when I was a small child of four and really grew up here in the UK and I think that was quite informative and educational for me, because when I came in here my English was limited at the time and I was really it was tough to fit in. I'm talking early 70s here, so the 1970s in the UK. You know there were different challenges around growing up as an immigrant. It's changed a lot since then, but back then it was quite challenging at times, quite difficult at times, but I was always trying to fit in. I think at that time I grew up in West London. My high school was quite diverse. Actually I was quite lucky in that respect. We had people from all types of backgrounds white working class, people from the Caribbean, other folks from Indian subcontinent, other kids my age from Poland, greece, who all grew up here. So it was quite a melting pot. So that was really really fortunate, but I really tried to fit in and be like others, and that was a characteristic, I would say, of still. I was in my in my teens and maybe in late teens and early 20s, perhaps always trying to fit in and trying to make sure that I was accepted, because that was one of the challenges. As you grow up here. You have certain incidents, you know, racial incidents etc and so on, as I had back then, and that made it challenging to try and fit in and belong.
Speaker 2:I was educated as an engineer, as the software engineer in in university in colchester and essex, and uh did uh bachelor's and master's and phd there. So I came from a technical background and I saw myself as an engineer. But I was never a really a backroom engineer. I was always in the front office, so to speak, trying to get stuff done with with people, trying to really understand how it can help business and the business implication of it. And I think that's how I became a leader in the business area.
Speaker 2:I had a gentleman in my early days at Cognizant who took a punt on me and said why don't you move from being a technical person to being a business leader? And that really, really helped me, because then I was able to become a business leader and therefore grow considerably, working at that great organization, really taking on more leadership responsibilities. So that was really really important for me and influential. And I think also, if I'm fitting in, then I'm suppressing what I have to offer, and I think the gentleman who gave me that opportunity he really really opened my eyes to that. I said don't try and fit in, just be who you are and really let your inner self shine through, and I think that's what was really really important for me. Then what happened after that was after I was at Cognizant for a number of years. I was able to grow the business there, leaving the UK, running our global telecom business, running a digital business, etc. And I think that was a very formative time for me and it was a company which really really brought the best out of people in the way that we are able to express ourselves, we are able to work very collaboratively with customers, really really be at the leading forefront of software development and engineering, et cetera, and so on.
Speaker 2:I was also lucky to live in the US for a number of years. I worked there with a number of people and I think that really shaped my background as well and my outlook, because in the US I found a little bit easier to work there than I did in the UK. In fact, I found that people were really I was different, I had an English accent, I lived in the US and so that was really quite interesting, because then I was different and people valued my difference and so I was even in a better way to express that I was different and really let that shine through, and I think that really helped me as I was moving forward. Better way to express that I was different and really let that shine through, and I think that really helped me as I was moving forward. I worked for a gentleman there in a different company Cambridge Technology Partners at the time who really really again placed a bet on me and said you know, I'd like you to take on this global CTO role, which I did, and that really really helped because I was able to then grow again as a leader through another great company, which really helped formulate my professional artwork etc.
Speaker 2:So it's been a combination of things really of trying to fit in and then realizing that you don't want to suppress who you are but bring out your best in you and then really really other people recognize it and then they can really really value it and you can be even more successful than you were before. And then I now I work at Verizon, where I'm lucky that I work in a company that I'm very proud to work at. I've been here two and a half years and from the very, very top of the company, Verizon doesn't just talk about diversity and inclusion but celebrates it, which is wonderful. So I'm very, very pleased to be working where I am, at Verizon, after having come across this journey about trying not to fit in but to really express myself.
Speaker 1:Sanjiv, thank you so much for sharing. It's a fascinating story which, interestingly, the piece around not feeling you fitted in and not belonging's something I hear often with very successful CEOs and senior leaders, and it's almost as if this chip on the shoulder propelled them into the place that they are because they were more attentive, more attuned to what others were doing, thinking, saying, feeling, in order to adapt.
Speaker 1:You know, whatever those characteristics they gain from those early feelings is really helped, albeit, um, there's nothing worse than, you know, being a youngster and feeling you don't fit in, especially within the school playground, which can be terribly cruel sometimes, I'm sure, often you know, potentially you know more challenging than being being in business and because those formative years you know, potentially you know more challenging than being in business and because those formative years you know and I remember desperately, desperately wanting to have blue eyes, blonde hair, wanting to be like the other white children in Yorkshire. So similar but different experience to you. I love the two pivotal moments in the career that you described, where you know, you say, modestly, you know, a guy, a leader, took a punt on me, gave me an opportunity, but I think it's really they clearly saw something. And you know, in your work as an advisor, a mentor I'm sure that's what you're looking at is these might be individuals, youngsters, who you, you know, fresh into an organization.
Speaker 1:They don't really know how the organization operates, but you see something in them, a skill, a talent that often is it's quite hard to describe in words, but that is talent. And talent can be seen everywhere. And no, you and I've had this discussion around talent being everywhere, but opportunity not necessarily and competitive world of business. But it sounds like these two pivotal moments in the career really shaped you and allowed you to embrace who you really were. Um, and like you, I do love the states and the fact that generally and I'm totally stereotyping here but the states love the British accent as well, so I can see the young Sanjeev leaning into that in his early career yeah, that was really important because you know you land up in I was in boston the second time, first time I lived in california and you don't know anyone.
Speaker 2:You just land there and then people recognize you as being different, and it's okay to be different because you know it's a country that's grown up from, you know, built on immigration and people from all different backgrounds, and so my, my difference accent being the most you know, one of the most obvious obviously, the way I look as well in some respects, accent being the most obvious it was great to be able to use that and value that and take it from there.
Speaker 2:But you, I also think you have to have, or I've had, people who believed in you and really taken a punt on you. Like I said and said, you know, I'll give you a chance. I've seen something. I'll give you a chance, and I think that's what I'd like to do more of. I try and do it as well. Try and talk to the folks who are here at Verizon, but also at other companies in the past, not just the people who work for you directly, but the other folks as well and hopefully look for smart, talented people and talent comes in all forms. Like you said, sometimes the most unexpected places are the best ideas.
Speaker 1:So, from that point of view, really try and value that and bring that forward Absolutely. I love your emphasis placed on holistic diversity, talent coming in many different forms, be it age, race, religion, belief, culture, nationality, et cetera, et cetera. Clearly, diversity, inclusivity, belonging, equity, culture all these wonderful, rich things have really shaped um, you, um, but tell me how? How have they shaped if they have the path of your leadership journey, and are there any interesting examples that you remember from your career where you think, oh my goodness, that was a real light bulb moment for me yeah, I think one of them was.
Speaker 2:I worked at a startup. My some colleagues of mine and myself. We started a company in the early 2000s in boston and um. We had a leader there, and what I noticed from her is she would always be walking around the office talking to everyone. She'd never eat lunch alone, she'd always be talking to people. And I was part of her team and I just noticed that you know just the human interaction, the dialogue, the spending time with people interested in life beyond work.
Speaker 2:Those kind of conversations were the most valuable and that's where her power was. Yes, she was smart, she made good business decisions, but her power was the conversation walking down the corridor, stopping at a booth, having lunch with folks and moving on. And that just made her a really engaging, dynamic leader and one who was very accessible and talked to everyone. She didn't just talk to her management team, she talked to everyone. You know the people we filled in the coffee machine, people who are, you know, the junior programmers or business analysts, etc. And so on, and I think you know, I think that's something which is worthwhile, I found it worthwhile to try and learn from, and I'm not the most extrovert person, so I have to make an extra effort to do that, but I think that was really really valuable. The people conversation that's what I loved as well. So I think that's the part that I really really valued and that I remember that distinctly, when she used to walk around the office and do that and she was really really good at that and a really engaging leader.
Speaker 1:That's a really great example and I love that you have a female example there as well um, who's making small talk, which is very important talk and, you know, demonstrates for everyone that actually, this is not purely a hierarchical state of play. Everyone's voice truly matters and arguably, in the age of ai and digital transformation and all these kind of things, the human, the true human touch, is perhaps the most valuable currency that we can have, because you know side of you know perhaps Alexa and such, having that emotional intelligence and that human connection is something that we remember, and it's the famous Maya Angelou quote, isn't it? Yeah, you always remember how people made you feel, but you forget about the things that they said or whatever they may have been talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and this leads me in two really interesting subjects, actually. So, first of all, the power of AI. And you know, given that you are a tech specialist, at the heart of it, even though you have the commercial layer, which I think is which is excellent. You know, love to know your, your kind of take and you know, are you fearful, are you excited about this world of AI? Any watchouts when it comes to diversity?
Speaker 2:Yeah one. I'm an optimist and hopeful for AI because I think it is a profound opportunity for us and really, really can be foundational in the way that we leverage technology every day for the betterment of us all. But I do worry about the way that bias can infiltrate and be in the data and the way it's trained. Ai systems are trained on data. If there's bias in the model, then that bias comes through in the algorithms and we've I don't know if many people, many, many people have heard about the bias in, I think, a passport facial recognition in certain passport algorithms than others were there in the past, and that's just a very good example and a very, you know, straightforward example of how bias can have a negative impact.
Speaker 2:So I think that's important because it can perpetuate or amplify bias in race, gender, socioeconomic status and other things which humans obviously we're trying to work, you know, work, work through and talk about and educate people. So if that's transmitted in a model, that can have a massive negative impact on a scale that can be quite significant. So I think that's the other one where that's the bit I worry about, and so that's why training the models, educating the model, et cetera, and so on without bias is important. And then the other piece is on ethics and trust, which is to make sure that many companies have principles around the way they use AI, they have responsible AI approaches, and it's just making sure that that is embedded deeply into the culture of any organization that's either using AI or developing its own models, et cetera. So, yeah, I'm optimistic about it, but I do worry about those, and that's why it's such a topic that we have to be aware of and continually raise, because you want to avoid bias around facial recognition, around facial recognition, language processing, et cetera, and so on.
Speaker 1:It's such a fascinating subject. I feel very similarly to you optimistic and excited for the transformations that it can do from you know some of the basics. You know, I believe, drafting emails and all these kind of things AI can do and support with, helping, support, menial admin tasks. But you know, as you've said, when it comes to things like facial recognition, given the fact that we know systems say, let's take racism, for example but systems are intrinsically, you know, systematically racist. They're built on, say, white infrastructure. Therefore, that build on, say, white infrastructure. Therefore, how are we training and developing those data sets? On the one hand, there's an opportunity to revolutionize efficiency but at the same time, to your point, could bias, infiltrate data, and I know it's not the same, but I suppose there's some similarities.
Speaker 1:As I saw I think it was an advert by Dove at one of our sessions, fascinating, and it was talking about the standardization of beauty. And you could take that same principle into the standardization of anything else data sets for whatever. And this model of beauty. When you typed in beautiful woman, something, this, it was this gorgeous, but blonde, slim, blue eyes, everything that I remember as a girl. I wanted to be. It was not the unfiltered, un-airbrushed definition of beauty. There was no brown skin, there was no yellow skin, there was no different shading there, and you just thought, oh my goodness, no wonder. When you look at you know, like even like you know magazines that we used to have, um, you know just 17 or whatever they were. You know you kind of, you know you're upholding yourself to a standard that you will never be, and that does not mean that you are not good enough. It just means that standardization, of westernization are a certain thing I think we've come a long way since.
Speaker 2:Probably I don't know if just 17 is still around, but we've come a long way since then have a thought about just like a million years.
Speaker 2:It's popped into my brain yeah, but I think that that continual, you know, discussion and dialogue, like like you've been raising, you know it's so important to continue to have that because if that drops off the radar then it can be very easily to sort of fall behind the wayside and then we'll fall into this negative world. So, you know, it's really important to have the dialogue and, of course, to make sure we audit and train data. We, you know, meant it, we basically um, you know, look at it and test it, etc. All these are all these things part of ai. But you're right, we need to keep.
Speaker 1:Fascinating. I could easily do a whole podcast with you talking about this and going really techy, sanju, but I must move on. Let's talk about mentorship and sponsorship. It's another fascinating subject which you know. You're a huge advocate for all forms of diversity. You've supported the women's sales leadership programs and you know you've been very supportive of initiatives that we have done within the greater context of Verizon and you know you've been very supportive of initiatives that we have done within the greater context of Verizon. But talk to me a little bit about you know the work that you do around mentorship, sponsorship, the importance of it and you know, did you have a mentor or a sponsor that impacted you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I never really had a mentor in the formal sense. You know, I've listened to lots of leadership, you know podcasts and books and things like that, and they talk about mentors and so on, and I'm just thinking well, unfortunately, I never really had a mentor. I had some great leaders who I tried to learn off and watch and figure out what they were doing like the lady I just mentioned a few moments ago and others but never really had a mentor, and so that's why I think it's important I never had one. So I think if there is something I can do to mentor others and help them, then I'd love to be able to do that and that's what I try and do, you know, when I can. So I've been fortunate also to work in environments where, you know, I've had role models and I've been able to watch them and learn from them, as opposed to have mentors.
Speaker 2:But I think that dialogue and that discussion those sort of just open and frank discussions which may not be a mentor session per se, but it's just a discussion overall and spending time listening to people I think is really, really important and being able to just give them some ideas or prompt the thinking in there.
Speaker 2:And I think that part of what I've tried to do also is be a better listener, because you know, I've been reading this book called Time to Think, which I think is by Nancy Klein I think I may have got that wrong, but I think that's who it's by and it's also about the quality of listening improves the ability for the person who's speaking to have better thoughts and a much richer conversation.
Speaker 2:So I've tried to be a better listener. Watch leaders I remember one time I was working where one other leader and he was talking about group discussions and would particularly draw everyone into the conversation, which is a basic leadership tactic, but he would specifically call out people who are very, very quiet or didn't have the confidence and ability to articulate themselves. Not everyone is able to come up with a great view or a great opinion right at the outset, so he would draw in people and ask them thoughtful questions that would bring the best out of them. And I think that's another way of trying to, you know, be more inclusive and bring the best out of people and mentor them in some respects.
Speaker 1:That's a great example, a really great example, and it makes me think of this archetypal definition of what a good leader looks like.
Speaker 1:And you know, if we look at kind of textbooks, it's often those you know, extra confident people who are very you know, loud, positive in many ways, but also overshadowing those who may well be just as intelligent, with just as good thoughts, who are introverts. And you know you mentioned at the beginning you have to work hard at networking. It might surprise you that I also do. I need a dark room to go into afterwards because I am an introvert perceived as an extrovert and you know, sometimes you know the voice of oh, my goodness, will people laugh at me if I speak up and say this? Often, especially for those who are young in the workplace, who you know are with senior folks, yeah, there is a bit of a need to have a confidence boost to speak up.
Speaker 1:So I think that is fantastic and you know, coming back to our earlier conversation around the importance of mentorship, sponsorship, you know it's brilliant that you are doing this because the power that can be had in what did you say, almost reflecting the mirror back at people to allow them to reflect more on their own thoughts, to allow them to verbalize what they're thinking, to shape further innovation and help find a solution, it's really positive and it's, you know, something that's often used in coaching skills and techniques. And you know I, like yourself, have had a mentor and I've had, you know, a sponsor very much down the entrepreneurial path. But I have had an executive coach whom I, you know, invested in myself to do that and something that I highly highly recommend because, absolutely, you know, I feel a very different person. You know, six months from having that exec coach. I hugely advocate for it and do some of the executive coaching myself, because the power of self-reflection, but with someone who's on your side, safe space, can be a real game changer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what many people need. Is that because a coach doesn't tell you what to do? A coach draws out the best from you by just asking you a few questions and sometimes just saying nothing at all, and letting you sort of process the thoughts in your head and then outcomes, perhaps the answer or a path forward, and I think that's the value in something like that, and that's a lot of good leader does as well, and also one who can, you know, recognize different types of people in the room the outspoken one, the quiet one, the one who just you know isn't paying attention perhaps and bring them all into the conversation and recognize that I'm chuckling there because, as you were talking that through, I'm envisaging teams and I'm sure those who are listening and thinking are.
Speaker 1:I know exactly who that is. He's not listening. I know the one who's quiet. I know the one who will always speak out, but sometimes, um, we need to make room for other voices to be heard. Exactly, very good. So, finishing on some lighter notes, I've got to ask you a couple of quickfire questions. I'm going to give you maybe 30 seconds to answer, but tell me what are your secrets to success?
Speaker 2:I guess secrets to success? No secrets, but I think one of the things I've tried to learn is seek to understand before judging or answering. And that would be one. Second one be nice. It's okay to be nice. Nice people are good. We need more of those. I think that's important. Don't ask others to do what you wouldn't do yourself. I think is another one which I've learned, and I think you said it. You're not as dumb as you think you are. You didn't say those words, but I think it's about you know. Asking the silly question is okay and it's okay to say I don't understand that. Could you just tell me another way? I think that's important, and those would be probably the poor few, I think yes, indeed, and guaranteed.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you ever had that moment when someone asked the question, you were thinking, do I, don't I? You're kind of, you know, certainly at school you're partially way through putting your hand up. You don't want to do it. Someone asked anyway. So clearly other people are thinking exactly what you were. You would just question yourself a little bit more than they were. But they're being nice, that's a great one. No one's ever said that. Actually no one has ever said that in the history of the podcast. Which amazing it is so underrated.
Speaker 1:I think again, this whole stereotype. I know we talked a lot about stereotypes and, you know, inadvertently, today in podcasts, but you know people always say there's kind of this whole stereotype. I know we talked a lot about stereotypes and, you know, inadvertently, today in podcasts, but, and people always say there's kind of this whole nice guy, nice girl finishes last and I've never really got that. I've been criticized for being too nice on a cake and there's times where I've thought, oh my goodness, have I been too nice and I've been too soft and, you know, been taken advantage of as as a leader or whatever. But it costs nothing to be nice, does it? And you never know what someone may be going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right, it doesn't cost anything. People remember how you make them feel that I'll quote you mentioned. But also, being nice doesn't mean not being open, honest and straight and plain. Talk about something, a topic to both, and it doesn't mean you have you know. That's where I think people sometimes get confused. So be nice, but also be open, honest and straight about the way things are. And yeah, you have to make tough decisions sometimes and do that, but that's okay. But as long as you're open and honest about it, people get it.
Speaker 1:Any advice that you might give to your younger self or any advice that you give to your sons that you wish you'd thought of yourself when you were that age.
Speaker 2:I think one is you don't ask, you don't get. Which is one. And then the other one I probably would be you get out what you put in. I know these are all clichés, but you get out what you put in, or you reap what you sow. So put in the hard yards, it pays. I'm trying to be a better listener. I guess I would say to my younger self I think I put the effort in. I think is the one thing I would say.
Speaker 1:They are excellent. The Timeless Classics and cliche or not I heard the other day cliches actually, most of them are true and I thought that's absolutely true. It absolutely is. Whichever generation we are in, we're saying something similar and it is it's generation we are in. We're saying something similar and it is it's. You know, it's hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Ultimately, um, and we absolutely must listen, because if we don't understand, how can we come up with a solution? If it is a customer, how can we make the problem better? If it is, um, you know something which is internal, many, many reasons, um, you absolutely can't go wrong with those things. And I'm still yet to meet someone who reasons, um, you absolutely can't go wrong with those things. And I'm still yet to meet someone who hasn't put in effort to get where they are, unless perhaps they're playing it down. I'm yet to meet someone. So I don't think truly, there are really any shortcut.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to do the hard yards, I think, and put the effort in, because it'll pay any final words of wisdom and reasons that people should join the ceo activist council which, um, I think one thing I really get from the meetings that you know- the privilege to join a view of yours is really the different kind of backgrounds that people have.
Speaker 2:You know, whether I'm sitting next to someone who is an ex-policeman, to someone else who's run a multi-million pound business but now is doing something which has given back to community, or whether I'm sitting next to someone who is a lecturer, it's a very diverse group and I think it's an opportunity to learn from others as well as an opportunity to perhaps just give a few of your thoughts as well. So we're more alike than we are different, and that's not always obvious on the outside and the way people act and behave. So I think once you get people's beyond people's exterior, there are many similarities and it's just fun to meet lots of other people who you know share a common interest and also we just come from different backgrounds. So that's what I really like about you know the CEOist council that you put together.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sanjeev. Well, um, it's been a brilliant, brilliant conversation today. Where to start to summarize, but, um, you know many learning points, from importance of advocacy, mentorship, interest around the future of technology and ai, and that we must must be careful when it comes to our biases, but also reflecting on those pivotal moments of our own leadership journeys. Sometimes it's easy to think about how far there is up the mountain to go versus thinking do you know what? That person gave me a chance at that point, what a great opportunity that's helped me get to this other pivotal point in my leadership journey. Opportunity that's helped me get to this other pivotal point in my leadership journey.
Speaker 1:And you know, finally, the piece that's really resonated and come out very much is this intrinsic need for belonging. It's something that we need as humans. It goes through to our very dna. And utilizing and understanding ourselves as being different, but positively showcasing that versus hiding it away because we can't be anyone else ultimately. So utilizing some of those great skills that we have and leaning into authenticity. Really, it's been an absolute pleasure, sanjeev.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you very much. It's been fun. I enjoyed it. Thanks a lot. It's great to talk to you again.
Speaker 1:Thanks, sanjeev. My name is Laila Mackenzie-Dellis. I'm founder CEO of Dial Global. You've been listening to the CEO Activist Podcast today. Make sure you subscribe. You check out the show notes from today's show. We'll make sure we put all of those in there. We've been joined by brilliant Sanjeev Gossain from Verizon. You can visit us at wwwdarglobalorg forward slash podcast or any of your favorite podcast channels Apple, spotify, you name it. Find us on there, hit subscribe and we will look forward to seeing you again very soon.