Diverse & Inclusive Leaders & CEO Activist Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity and culture.
Diverse & Inclusive Leaders & CEO Activist Podcast by DIAL Global
Climbing the Ladder: Jenn Barnett on Turning Adversity into Advocacy for Diversity and Inclusion
From the gritty streets of a low socioeconomic childhood to the corporate halls of Grant Thornton, Jenn Barnett's journey is a masterclass in resilience and vision. Her story isn't just about overcoming odds; it's about transforming them into a ladder for others to ascend. As a psychologist turned champion for inclusion and diversity, Jenn unveils the intricate dance between personal growth and professional innovation, and how her past fuels her relentless pursuit to cultivate an environment where everyone thrives.
This episode is a mosaic of experiences, from Jenn's early fascination with human behavior to her dynamic roles across industries, all converging to shape her understanding of the power of diversity in decision-making. You're invited on a voyage through the shifting landscapes of workplace culture, where the courage to embrace the unfamiliar paves the way for groundbreaking ideas. Our conversation traverses the delicate balance of fostering growth through challenge while ensuring a foundation of security, revealing how diverse teams are not just morally right but business-savvy.
As we wrap up, Jenn imparts her wisdom on the complexities of embedding diversity within the DNA of an organization. Crafting strategies that resonate with the unique challenges of varied groups, she emphasizes the critical role of mentorship and sponsorship, the strategic application of data, and the overarching importance of psychological safety in driving inclusive change. Through Jenn's lens, we grasp the significance of resilience, the impact of trust, and the unwavering optimism needed to sow the seeds of diversity for a more robust future in business. Join us, and be inspired to be an agent of change in your own sphere.
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Hello and welcome to Diverse, inclusive Leaders. This is a show where I speak for the most inspirational and thought provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I am joined by Jen Barnett, director and head of inclusion and diversity and ESG at Grant Thornton. In addition to the day job, jen is a non-executive director, psychologist, coach, supervisor, mental health expert, access accountancy trustee, lord Tavernas board member and also a judge on the social mobility task force, board Pugh. Welcome to the show, jen. Hi hi, laila, lovely to be here. It's lovely to have you here. Finally, and I would love for those that don't know you as well as I do, to give us a little bit of a favor of how you came to be where you are today and the journey to date.
Speaker 2:I'll keep this fairly brief. I'm a psychologist by background, always has an interest in people. I think it came from having quite a disrupted childhood, should we say. I came from a divorced family, a very low socioeconomic background to myself, and also I had a real interest in the way that people are motivated, how they tick. Psychology was the root for me and I think that led me to a number of people type roles.
Speaker 2:I found that a number of people roles within organizations tended to be led quite heavily by process and I was more interested in one of the cultural dynamics, one of the things that we need to shift in order for people to do their best work and feel that they're best, and that had led me into various cultural change roles and then eventually into inclusion and diversity.
Speaker 2:When that became something that Grant Horton as a business really wanted to focus on, which was about five years ago, and we wanted to focus on it because we wanted to improve belonging and inclusion for all and we knew that diverse characteristics had certain barriers that really needed to focus on, to overcome, to enable diversity to thrive and put the pipelines to come through. So inclusion and diversity kind of became a natural home for me, I guess from a background of psychology. And then, more lastly, asg, because that's really about how do you create the environment to enable people to feel responsible for that sustainability of your business. And a lot of the work we do in community impact is strongly correlated with the work that we do to support underprivileged people into employment and, obviously, the work that we do around the environment. The gender is about creating that better planet, so there is definite synergy in the roles, and that's how I've ended up where I am today.
Speaker 1:That is some whiff of Mark-Jan. Thank you so much and I really appreciate you sharing as well the personal background coming from a low socioeconomic background divorce, family yet still being able to have the tenacity of the resilience to go from strength to strength, not only in the previous roles that you've done and work, but you know the BAE systems of the world and other blue chips pre-grand-born turn. Did you see when you were kind of you know, back at university, I think, went to Newcastle University as well? I'm not sure what you studied, but I would love to know more? Did you see this being kind of almost a goal that you were aspiring to reach, or was it more organic from the psychology and then layering on the business aspects on top of that?
Speaker 2:It was definitely organic it was organic.
Speaker 2:I think at the time, whenever you're I think most people will feel this when they're studying it's a case of you get interested in a topic and you then find out as much as you can about that topic to me at the psychology and then you find ways to apply that into into business. So I was interested, I was curious. I was always interested and curious and I wanted to learn, and I think that they were the traits that took me from university into the world of work and I think that I would love to say I had a real goal to work for a particular company doing a particular thing. But it was definitely the opportunities arose. I try. I was very happy to try out different things and I thought if I didn't work I would try something out. But I think I've always had a love of and an interest in the way our brains work, which is why I became very interested in mental health.
Speaker 2:I would say that's an area of deep expertise now, because I don't believe you can perform at your best if you're not fully cognizant of your own anxieties, your own issues about how, what holds you back yourself and then how you can help other people to overcome that. In themselves. I think business is people are intrinsically linked and definitely as you become a senior and become a leader, you realise that actually a lot of your role is motivating people to perform, and I think the only way you can really motivate people to perform is if you have a real interest and curiosity in what makes that person perform at their best. So I would say it's organic. It's definitely served me well in terms of the role that I do now.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating because you went around the front and then you went to British Airways.
Speaker 2:At British Airports Authority.
Speaker 1:Yes, indeed, how did you find the change from the services business into then the? You know the various other industries that you'd gone in throughout the course of the career.
Speaker 2:Very different. Again, that's probably organic. It was trying out different things, understanding, and I think I tend to move with people I know. So the reason I moved to BAA was because I knew the person that had been brought in to change the culture there and to move it into a different place, and the opportunity presented itself that just felt so exciting because it was all about culture change for British Airports Authority and they run up to Olympic Games. So it was how do you support that shift in behaviour to create that better customer experience through the airports? And they run up to the Games because the whole world would be looking at you through airports. So it just felt like too good an opportunity to not do that.
Speaker 2:I find that working in different environments and different industries are they give you growth. I wouldn't necessarily say that some of it is positive growth, but they're all growth opportunity and you know, in the airport it's 24-7 all the time. It's metallic and it's crisis after crisis that you tend to get brought into, so very high energy environment and some people love that. Some people find that very stressful. So I think it is quite a lot personality dependent and, yeah, professional services has different pressure points and very different ways of working, but interesting nonetheless in terms of making those comparisons.
Speaker 1:I think it's fascinating the diversity of industry as well, something that we don't often always speak about, and I used to.
Speaker 1:Well, the pre-running dial, I worked in exec search and you know we often wanted to hire people from the same place with the same skill set, and you know a lot of that time was then spent kind of convincing whether it was hiring managers, organizations, to look at the diversity of sector as well as the diversity that sits within our own personal characteristics, you know, sits below the surface, thinking outside of the box to drive that greater innovation and skills into an organization that may have done things a very similar way and expected same results every time.
Speaker 1:And yeah, that's. That's something that just really struck me as you were starting to speak then. So I think some of the you know, some of the most successful professionals I've spoken to have had a broad brush range of industries underneath their belt, because those people, skills and the ability to navigate fast-moving environments and different workplaces has served them very well. When it comes to the people part, you know, because that is the, you know, that's the living, the sleeping, the breathing pieces, that culture and you know modern-day world, working with that agility and that speed is absolutely crucial to success and innovation, and I think it was Matthew Syard, when Matthew Syard said that growth comes at that point when you're likely uncomfortable and you don't know the map ahead and change is uncertain and you you're actually uncomfortable in in a space.
Speaker 2:That's when the growth happens. And I think, as humans, we're an oxymoron because we really really enjoy growth and we like learning, like you must, but we also really like stability and we like to know what we're doing the next day and you know we like repetitive things in our lives and we like that stability as well as the growth. So how do you balance those two to enable you to have to be able to do your best work? Really, because you need to have the security to know that you're good at what you do and that you're able to transfer the skills and, at the same time, enable yourself to have that growth and that learning by making itself a little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:It's such an interesting concept because we do all love that security and the security blanket of doing similar things. Yet that is sometimes where the best pieces of innovation and learning come from. When you start to look back at elements, pivotal places almost in the career, where it's like, oh my goodness, do not know what is happening at this point, but actually the deepest level of learning is coming from that change, that innovation, even though it may not feel it out at the time, which leads us really nicely into us talking about the change that has happened over the last decade and where we see the future headed. It's something I'm so curious to ask you about because obviously, the world of diversity and inclusion, ind, dni, diversity and Inclusion, belonging equity culture, or Dibeck as we call it has been such an evolving cycle and, on this backdrop of what is happening, with geopolitical issues and almost quite polarizing narratives at time, how do you see this playing out in the role and you know where do you feel we've come from and where do you think we're headed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really interesting question, nolan. I guess I can break it down into a few parts, but I think there's something about the evolution of the skills. I think when IND first became a thing, it started to become something ahead of IND. Well, it started to become really popular about five years. Four or five years ago, a lot of companies were starting to see that there was a business risk here, potentially, so there was a need to start looking at it from a commercial business perspective. Then we were recruiting heads of IND. Now, what I don't think we've actually done with heads of IND yet is really establish what the skill set is that is required to enable change in a business and to enable businesses to start to think about IND in a not just the commercial way, but in a way that supports innovation, in a way that supports growth, in a way that supports different thinking.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've read it, but there was a Forbes article that was printed and Forbes had studied and asked us. It was a Clover Pop decision-making database and they'd studied 600 business decisions made in 200 different businesses. What they found was that, compared to individual decision makers, all male teams made better decisions 58% of the time. So it's better to have more people involved in decisions. That's a good thing, rather than making them on your own. If you have gender diverse teams, that increased to 73% and then if you had a wide range of ages and different geographical locations, then that team made better decisions 87% of the time. I think it's definitely evolved, in terms of thinking about the long-term impact of focusing on investment and inclusion, from something that was about people and helping people to feel that they belonged. I think there is still a focus on that and I think that is a very important aspect of the work that the DNI professionals do that importance of community building, that importance of people feeling protected, one of the most vulnerable, and that is really important. That's strengthened by the processes in an organisation, by the capacity that you have to have really inclusive workforces. I think it's moving now towards being able to articulate what those outcomes are that you're trying to achieve.
Speaker 2:The point that you made about geopolitical landscape how are businesses responding to that? How are they becoming resilient to risk? Because those geopolitical issues are really increasing and that polarisation of views in businesses is something that it's the tension, that conflict, that tension. How do you hold those two? How do you recognise that is a risk to a business and how do you hold those two in high regard in the same organisation? The danger is, if you've got two opposing views I'll take the example of Garza at the moment, if you protect one side more than the other, then it could be seen as a portrayal. And also you've got the equality act increasingly looking at who it's choosing to protect and why. So when you're going to have opposing, conflicting views, both being protected by the equality act gender critical beliefs and transgender beliefs you're going to have that in a business as well.
Speaker 2:So how do you get your business resilient to that risk?
Speaker 2:And then you're looking at okay, so if that's an outcome, if that's an outcome that I'm looking to achieve, what are the inputs and the activities that I need to get there?
Speaker 2:And also, I think there's this view that, as I indeed professional, it's understanding like what psychological safety is, what are the components of that from a cultural perspective?
Speaker 2:How do you create that safety to speak up and also increase that emotional connection to your brand and to your business?
Speaker 2:Because actually it does create better business decisions, it does create wealth creation, it does get better client engagement, but it's trying to make that link, I think, which is where, as the IND Agenda matures, is where I think we need to be heading as a profession.
Speaker 2:And then I think the other thing to think about is what skills are required in an IND professional to do that and to enable that healthy conflict.
Speaker 2:So, moving away from thinking I'm right, you're wrong, I've won, you've lost, to thinking about what's the deeper truth that we're trying to get to and trying to unravel that so that it's removing those barriers and getting to that deeper truth, or it's creating innovation through new possibilities that you've got to opposing views somewhere in. That is a new way of taking that forward to a new possibility. So it's encouraging and increasing innovation. And it's this point around discomfort I talked about previously that it's only in discomfort that you can get growth. You can't get growth in comfort. So it's almost encouraging that conversation to enable that growth to happen. And I think that really good IND professionals have this real opportunity to be at the heart of that and start connecting that with the real business imperative around the importance of innovation, the importance of growth. How do you get people into that mindset? You can get them into that mindset through their ability to have healthy conflict with difference.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, so much of what you've said there. I was holding myself back from trying to interrupt because there's so much that you've covered and it's interesting that you talk about discomfort is the place that we get growth. I completely agree. Additionally, I've mulled a lot recently on how world trends or world issues have affected the profession and obviously, on the one hand, when you look at things like Israel, gaza, it is so divided. Chief execs are worrying about how they try and support both sides. It feels very divided and almost harder to a certain extent.
Speaker 1:When we hear the brutal merger of George Floyd and we hear about Ukraine and Russia, it almost feels an easier place to say right versus wrong. And obviously we saw a huge uptick in organizations recruiting for diversity professionals. On the one hand, I think this is wonderful because this is exactly what we need, but equally, you worry that some of this could have been performative, because actually there's such a it feels like a lot of the industry is a little at the mercy of some of the world issues. Again, no, just a reflection that, but I mean I'd love to know what your thoughts are, because it is being a rollercoaster, hasn't it over the last couple of years? I think it is.
Speaker 2:And I think it's not helped by the polarization of sensation like headlines. I think it's definitely seen an increase in it since COVID. Whether COVID's had an impact on that I don't know, but I definitely think there's been a shift in the way that social media is utilized to create news about things and actually we run a bullying and harassment webinar and part of that is actually saying to people would you state the same things to somebody's faith that you see on social media and would you do that and it's a very powerful technique because it is a form of bullying and harassment, but it's also a form of expressing your viewpoints and your views are valid and your views are equally as valid as my views.
Speaker 2:They might be different and I think it's a very delicate balance that you're treading between what support you give and how you give that in an equal way versus your own personal beliefs. So I might have very strong beliefs that I might believe in one side more than the other if we're talking about side team winning and losing, but actually my role is not to bring that into it. My role is to understand the different truths and work out common ground to enable things to move forward. So I do think it's really complex and I think there's geopolitical issue are we don't know what's gonna hit us next and in the future, but one thing that can guarantee is there will be more, so they are not going away, and it's how we choose to respond to that and how we build a skill and the resilience in our individuals to enable us to respond to that in a positive and constructive way.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating because when you see to your point some of these concerning headlines at least, I think to myself oh my goodness, words, they hold such an immense influence. They've got this power to unite or divide, and power or marginalize. All of these different things shape perceptions of what is a deeply rooted, very, very complex subject. And when you said that the role of the IND exec is not to necessarily get personal views involved but actually to pull that back into tangible actions, responses that are going to drive better business outcomes, it really makes such a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's moving it away and I think this is where we've been with IMG that it has been about people and that is really important aspect of our agenda that it is about people, it is about belonging, it's about supporting the most marginalized and the most vulnerable. It is also a really, really important business driver that.
Speaker 2:I think there's a little bit. The danger with the polarization of views on all of the social media is you start to lose that along the way and actually it is a commercial driver for any business to be able to really deal with some of this and to have the stretch and the skill and then their business to actually support it. And I think if you can do that, then you're much more able to create a more sustainable and resilient business model and you do get better innovation and you get better ideas. So I do think there are two things of idea. I think it's the people aspect and it's the belonging, and it is the diversity, and it's the targets and everything else. And there's also a much bigger point around how does this link to where we're going as a business? How is this going to help us to be successful in what we're trying to do and therefore, how does that have an impact on the broader society as well?
Speaker 1:When I've seen some of these headlines recently and presenting at various conferences, I said don't just believe these headlines, because people can lie but the data doesn't.
Speaker 1:And so it's how you transcend this power of importance when it comes to storytelling, but, equally, driving the longer term sustainable growth opportunities through commercial output.
Speaker 1:And again, reflecting on our conversation, and something that I've seen over the last five, ten years, is that diversity was seen as this nice to have, still a lovely, fluffy kind of thing, and I think it's, in one way, the very worst situation because the second we start to see it as something which is fluffy and a nice to have, even though most people know it is a moral imperative, it starts to shift away from the importance of this as a diversity being a commercial leave of economic growth and prosperity, which is everything that you are saying here is. Words have got these and stories have got a brilliant power to be able to influence proactively but equally, data, statistics, numbers to drive better business outcomes, with the examples you gave there from Forbes, you know we've been hearing for the last 10, 20 years and seeing in the research that this does drive better engagement, therefore profitability to hit the bottom line, which is, you know, in a climate that we're in an economic uncertainty, I really believe that it is the answer and solution to unlock better outcomes.
Speaker 2:And it's and isn't it.
Speaker 2:It's the right thing to do and it's the right thing to provide that environment to people, because we know and I apologize, I know that you can only perform at your best when you feel psychologically safe.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, new ideas, innovation, ability to think in a different way, the auto shuts down, your defence mechanisms come into your brain, everything shuts down. You're not in a position. If you're really stressed and you're feeling unsafe and you're feeling devalued, all of that shuts down. So that that is so that people aspect is really, really important, because to get the best out of people and to get the best idea, there is a business connection. It's how you then use the language to commercialise it. It feels connected and I think there is a danger and I do think that it's important that we have lots of networks and we have lots of you know, safe space for people to talk. We do have events and things, but there is a little bit of a danger that we've moved more into that and I think it just needs to be rebalanced back to why we're doing this and why it's important.
Speaker 1:The piece around risk as well I was just reflecting again on the conversation is the impact of inaction far outweighs the risk that I think organisations see in spending or investing more in this, which is kind of crazy because you think, well, given what we're seeing in the press, if we do not lean into this and continue to invest in it right now, actually the amount that could also cost businesses in the long term is astronomical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think there's the most, I would say. A lot of businesses are tuned into that. Now they understand that there's a big risk element to it and there's also a potential growth element to it as well. So there is both. So I think that that has been recognised. It's more a question of where does it go next and its maturity, and I think all businesses are at different points, aren't they in the maturity of their agenda?
Speaker 2:And I also think that the data point that you mentioned is really important, because that helps businesses to understand where some of their challenges really are. And I think the other point that's really important is really understanding from your diverse populations what the barriers are that exist within your own organisation and what you can do to really act on that and to put those things right to make a difference. And I think there's. You know there has to be an incentive or a motivation to make those changes happen before you ask people on the problem, because otherwise you raise expectations and if nothing changes, it can create apathy and disappointment. So that's why I think it's complicated, because you want to know what the problems are, but the solutions are quite sometimes very complex and hard to put into play and, as you say you know there's no one cookie cutter model size fits all, which I think you know.
Speaker 1:I hear this a lot. It's just give us a solution. Give us a solution. There is no one cookie cutter model size fits all, because every different business has a different culture. There's different expectations. The stakeholder groups you know your employee resource groups, your diverse and inclusion professionals, each of our leaders, increasingly, you know investors and others on the board. You know it is. You know it's mild wide and it's mild easy. It's mild wide and it's mild deep, isn't it? And so diagnosing those specific areas with then specific, tangible actions, is key for us to continue evolving within each and every one.
Speaker 2:And it's also about focus, because you could do you could do 100 things in a week and sometimes it feels like throwing a little water scene sticks and actually if you have the data and you have the focus groups, you're able to focus your attention.
Speaker 2:And we've only got limited reasons and limited time and business leaders have got limited resources and limited time. So it's one of the two or three things that will be really impactful to take it forward. And at Grand Fault and we've been we spent quite a long time building a sponsorship program last year which was asking our you know, really experienced partners and directors and leaders to sponsor diverse talent. So that is a program that requires investment, time and resource, but actually all of our leaders have responded very well to that and structured, and it's a program that's in place and we'll measure it to understand the impact on the tension, and so that was one thing that we did. But the ripple effects of that are lots of time, lots of attention and lots of investment in the problem of progressing diverse talent in our business. So I think once you've identified the real issue, then we can start to put the solutions in place that we need to put in place. Yeah, hard work.
Speaker 1:Hard work, but also unwavering optimism as well, because I think you know everything goes through these cyclical cycles. Naturally, you know when you have brilliant individuals like yourself and other directors who are willing to sponsor programs to make a difference. Actually, sometimes patience is a virtue because we know the great things innovation, profitability will come out of all of that work. Before we run out of time, jen, I'd love to ask a couple of little lightning round questions, because I could spend actually all afternoon podcasting, I think, couldn't we quite? I'm going to give you 30 seconds or thereabouts. Don't be too strict on the last couple of questions that I'll ask. I'm going to start with hardest one first is what would you say has been your secret to success, or is that one, I think?
Speaker 2:I think it's like the ability to bounce back. So I have pretty good bounce ability and for things can get down you know they do I do have an wavering optimism and I do think that sees me through. So I guess you might call it resilience, you might call it bounce ability. I think that that's the thing it's not being too disheartened by your failures or your mistakes or your wrong turns or your disappointment, and picking yourself back up quickly and putting yourself on a different track. I think that's probably been the biggest thing that has helped me to be successful.
Speaker 1:Any hero she rose, anyone that's made a mark difference to you. I'm sure there's many. Give me one or two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a number that tend to be influenced by famous people, but by by people that I know and who I care about and who have an influence on my life. So, given my childhood, I tend to take quite a long time to trust somebody. That when I trust them, I'll tend to go to them for mentoring and relationships. And I still, actually, in my BA systems day, I had a boss there who who is still my mentor now and I will speak to so that 20 year relationship. So I would probably say they're my heroes, the people that I feel I can really trust, that will have my best interests at heart, who I can go and talk to about these things.
Speaker 1:I love that real models we often call the that are real models over role models sometimes and people who have had the belief. I think it makes such a huge, huge difference. And finally, if you give your younger self any advice, is there anything that you might might say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say be less hard on yourself and believe, just trust yourself a bit more. I think I have a really good instinct, but when I in my younger self, I didn't necessarily trust this instinct. So I think it's yeah, I think it's probably trust my instinct.
Speaker 1:Jen, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:It has been a fabulous podcast and I feel there's been so many learnings from this session.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking about where to start but, for those that are listening, really considering the greater business impact, thinking about the fact that we must be resilient during times of change and also be considering the longer term impact of the actions that we are taking.
Speaker 1:Particularly enjoyed the piece around innovation and almost this pain point of when we feel that it is hard really leaning into that discomfort in order to then reap some of the benefits that come out of the other side, and also the and, given the cultural dynamics that we're seeing geopolitical aspects out in the world at the moment, I love the talk around healthy, healthy conflict. There isn't always a right or a wrong answer. Sometimes it's actually okay to be within the grain. So when you come back to the commercial business perspective and the fact that actually we know that the numbers are telling us the truth and that is that this drives better decision making, drives better economic opportunity and outputs for all, because we all know that that sense of belonging and engagement is why we remain where we are within our organisations, and so that was something that was a really interesting reflection point there as well. So, jen, thank you ever so much. It's been really fun.
Speaker 1:My name is Layla McKenzie, dallas, founder and CEO of Darglobal. You've been listening to the diverse inclusive leaders podcast show with the brilliant Jen Barnett of Brant Thornton. You can check out all of our show notes online. You can visit us on our on your favourite podcast out there Apple, spotify, whichever one you choose or directly at wwwdarglobalorg forward slash podcast, and we'll look forward to seeing you again very soon.